Following The Avengers’ underwhelming first instalment which played out like a poorly organised NBC sitcom set on Bonfire night, it was this week confirmed that its director, mastermind and pretty colours enthusiast Joss Whedon would be helming its sequel.
Fan boys rejoiced, Robert Downey Jr. pulled a smug facial expression, Chris Evans pulled no facial expression and an illegal Chinese firework seller in downtown New York put a deposit down on a Ferrari; The Avengers 2 is coming in the same style as the first… Oh dear.
However not one to take anything lying down, more like kicking and screaming until my voice gives out and I mess myself, I found the need to fly the flag of not giving up hope and offer the Marvel film machine a handy list of things to make the sequel less of forgettable light show; and more like something worth the money.
1. Make It Less Like A Superhero Sitcom
Why This Sucked:
As aforementioned in my not-at-all maniacal introduction; The Avengers felt like a situation comedy lifted straight out of the Friday death slot…And not a good one.
There’s all for finding humour in a situation, and alleviating some of the horror by making a joke or two but this films attempt at this is poor. No amount of one liners or Robert Downey Jr’s smug self-satisfaction could do little but raise the odd wry smile from your box of popcorn as you checked the receipt and wondered if it had a no-satisfaction back guarantee clause on the back of it. It didn’t. Bummer.
The cheap and constant use of borderline humorous head smacking was a poorly used disguise for the fact they couldn’t make the characters interesting.
The characters being the God of thunder; a playboy billionaire with a God complex; a schizophrenic genius; a man who was frozen in ice for 60 years and Hawk-Eye….Ok, I’m all for not being able to make him interesting but the rest?
The humour doesn’t come from the characters personalities but instead a wash-away script that reduces them all to the same basic one line repeaters. This isn’t a film about characters; it’s an egotistical fan dance of its own script. And it sucked.
How To Make It Better:
Character development, interesting story-archs and making each character different; some things that Joss Whedon may have missed in film making school and could be used to good effect.
If it wants to be funny; be funny. But use the individuality of its characters and the situations they find themselves in to do it. Not fit them to the one note script.
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61 Comments
Oh I see what happened now, you were in The Dark Knight Rises theatre! That sucks.
Wow. One of the stupider articles I’ve read in a while. Then I read it was by a wanna-be 19-year-old critic who tries so hard to be witty. Cool.
Ah, a Scott Pilgrim fan, I see!
Luke has developed well in the last 6 months. And his analysis was spot on. Less humor, develop breakout characters like Banner, and bolster the threat.
He got it right. Deal with it.
Why less humor? the movie is meant to be fun. Banner was sufficiently developed, ok maybe developed isn’t the right right word, but anyone will tell Hulk was the stand out character. And the threat is an alien invasion, the army isn’t the main focus, it’s Loki, seriously what the heck?
You sir, are wrong on every level. Good Day.
I like this comment. Concise, to the point, no mention of my age and no pointless comment about The Dark Knight Rises.
You sir, are my favourite.
I disagree with you completely, and I’m pretty sure you just want some attention by pointing out these fictional flaws. That, or you just can’t have fun and enjoy an entertaining movie.
spot on
Hey Luke… I think you forgot to sign in before you posted.
The one thing I agree with was point #1. It’s not a fictional flaw as you say. This “movie” had WAY too many puns, bits, schtick, and one-liners to be taken seriously (what the hell was all the shwarma crap at the end? just stupid.).
Well spot on in my opinion, most of the marvel movies seem to be half superhero/action and half wannabe buddy movies that are only usually reserved for Vince Vaughn or Owen Wilson. The whole Robert Downey JR smug and supposedly witty one liners has got really old now, it’s a shame as he is a talented actor and had a much better performance in the first Iron man but it just seems the current portrayal of Tony Stark is terrible and has lost any sense of humility and despair from his experiences in the first film.
Good article Luke and I could care less what your age was when I read it.
Just finished your first suggestion to those who get paid to make these movies (and in case you haven’t heard, they got paid a lot for this one). It’s funny how you attack a popular film like all hipsters do, for the one thing that most people have universally accepted as the film’s redeeming quality – character development and interactions. Even those who don’t like the movie have agreed that the character development was good.
So I assume you either didn’t watch the movie, or you are being a hipster because it’s the cool thing to do (which inherently goes against everything hipsters are all about – hating things that are cool).
I wish I had listened to my gut and not visited this article, because I imagine you get paid per unique visit. Oh well, this was the comic relief I needed before getting back to work. It’s a shame I won’t be finding out the other 4 points you wanted to make based on your incredibly profound insight. I’m sure I’ll lose sleep over it.
It’s not hipster or dickheadedness to have an opinion different to yours.
I watched the movie; I didn’t like it, they are making a second one and thought I would write a piece which highlights what I thought was bad about it and how this could be improved upon.
Also I don’t get paid; but if getting paid means sitting on my arse trolling articles whilst at work I hope I can be just like you one day.
While I strongly disagree with most of your points, I think they’re mostly subjective matters. You’re entitled to your opinion and it’s actually refreshing to see someone who is not in love with the film. I am, but I value opposite views.
I do agree about there being a need for more screen time for Loki. Hiddleston is one of the most talented actors they got for the franchise (I think some of them are quite limited, especially Downey Jr.) and the best they can do is mine his understanding of the character and, obviously, his charm which seems to enjoyed by a lot of the ladies.
I think you don’t understand people or things.
Luke: this is your father-lighten up.
Someone evidently missed the point of everything ever. Have fun with that. Except it seems like you can’t. Oh well.
Luke, you are a dope.
Hello. I don’t have much analysis experience when it comes to films/comics etc but even I can see this is a poorly written piece. You clearly have little understanding and/or have not researched enough of the comic industry, the writing of Joss Weadon or current affairs.
I know that as a young writer you’ll gain the skills over time so I’ll put this article down to naivety.
And we’ll put your comments down to being an immature comedy-addict who probably loves The Hangover and hate The Dark Knight.
Luke nailed it. It’s not his fault that pointing out the movies flaws hurt your feelings.
You’ve proven you know nothing about comic books or comic book movies. You were taken in by the novelty of having 4 franchise characters on the screen together. But you utterly fail to realize novelty won’t sustain a franchise.
Avengers 2 MUST be able to compete with the standard Nolan set. Stupid comedy and camp won’t do it. Either they nail it or this will be the mother of all sequelitis.
“Avengers 2 MUST be able to compete with the standard Nolan set”
No I like to understand the characters I’m watching whilst not thinking about the huge plot holes DURING the movie.
I just can’t tell if the author is serious or not.
That’s just like your, uh, opinion man.
I was with you until reading ‘Kat Dennings was a delight in Thor.’ Sorry… just couldn’t bring myself to keep reading after that.
In all fairness my opinion on Kat Dennings rests solely on her face…Such a pretty face…In a non-serial killer way.
See, I /loved/ the Avengers. But I find I agree on about half the points here anyway.
1, the humor – totally disagree. Not only did I find it genuinely funny – unlike a sitcom – but I felt the humor humanized the characters. It’s too bad you led off with this one, because it’s the most misguided of the five points.
2, the humanization. (It’s a z in American english, s in British english. I’m American, so.) Moderate disagreement. I thought the characterization was good. A lot of it comes from the humor, though, so if that didn’t work for you, I suspect that’s where this point comes from.
3. More Loki. Sure, can’t argue with the fact that the camera loved him. I’m sort of half in-agreement on this one – I’m not sure the pacing would’ve worked with more focus on Loki, but he was good enough I’d be willing to see it tried.
4. More women, and women doing non-macho things. Yes, totally. I like the Widow and she was well portrayed, but there’s a wide selection of Marvel women. However, I’d rather see them as heroes than must merely love interests. The Wasp would be an excellent choice, both with her history with the Avengers and her personality. Carol Danvers in her new Captain Marvel persona would make me absolutely giddy. And while Sony has the man, Marvel still owns the rights to Spider-Woman.
5. More Hulk. Couldn’t agree more. This character absolutely worked in a way he never has on film before.
I don’t think you give enough credit to the rest of the audience. You aren’t the only one that realized how great Bruce/Hulk was. And we are all bright enough to understand how painful it would be for Thor to have to fight against his brother. If these and other subtleties you mentioned were any more defined the audience might have felt patronized and the movie would have been dumbed down. Character development happens in the other marvel movies. If you want want a movie that focuses on the hulk then watch the hulk. I am all for making avengers 2 not suck but it sounds like you just want a romance film.
I don’t simply just want a romance film, I’m all for putting characters first and then the things that happen to them second. Therefore you can interpret their reactions and actions to the world around them relatively to your interpretation of the character if you understand?
I think if you tie a character, a personality, to the situation that gives the film much more punch than just putting ‘types’ in a situation.
You have redefined failure.
You had one major over-arching point that you tried to elaborate on to seem like it had more depth which it did not. “Character Development”
“What happened to all those love stories in the endless stream of origin films? Why aren’t they allowed now?” The answer would be BECAUSE YOU DON’T RETELL THE SAME DAMNED STORIES OVER AGAIN. Not to mention the character you wanted to develop more was the Hulk. He had two movies and the longest running tv show but you’re upset it’s not all packed into this movie.
It’s also clear that you’ve never read the comic books as you attributed every character trait Tony Stark had to Robert Downey Jr and ignored the fact that the movie followed the comics including the in-fighting that was actual fighting.
You’re clearly not an Avenger fan and you’re clearly not a writer and you are out of your league/mind thinking you can improve on one of the highest grossing movies of all time and now you are out of credibility.
Well done, please tell your bosses to fire you.
People who come to blogs about movies based on comic books and start talking about the comic books need a large object removed from a downward facing exit point.
I’m not judging this films relative merits to the comic book, and no you reading the comic book does not make you better than me, I’m looking at its merits as a film that stands alone and it sucks.
It’s possible to continue a love story without telling the DAMNED SAME STORY OVER AGAIN, note The Lord of The Rings, same characters, same relationships, different progression. Not a lot of difference.
Also money doesn’t make a film good; The Last Airbender grossed more than Scott Pilgrim vs The World. Doesn’t make it better.
“Character development, interesting story-archs and making each character different; some things that Joss Whedon may have missed in film making school and could be used to good effect.”
This one made me laugh. You obviously have never seen a Joss Whedon show before or you would be eating your own words right now. Everything you described about Joss lacking is exactly what he is known for.
The signs of good journalism is research which you sir could not have done before you made that comment…also spell check, its ‘story arc’ not ‘story arch’.
This point would be valid if I was doing a chronicle of his entire career. I was talking about his merits in these areas in regards to this film.
So you lost any and all credibility when you called Bruce Banner schizophrenic. First, schizophrenia is not multiple personality disorder as you seem to imply. Schizophrenia is a disconnect from reality. It’s hallucinations. Auditory (voices in your head), visual, textile, and olfactory. Schizophrenia is far, far more terrifying than dissociative identity disorder (what some call Multiple Personality Disorder). Second, he doesn’t have that either. People with D.I.D. rarely only have one alternate identity, and it is NEVER physically different. If you’re going to reference psychological disorders, do your research.
Luke Stevenson
Please just keep your posts to your self and never post in public again. Your opinions are bias and one sided and have nothing to do with the actual film. You have set out to hate this film and are trying to do so in the most public area you can.
I very much liked the film and EVERYONE I know also like it.
Maybe someone can post 5 reasons why Luke Stevenson is wrong and his posts suck.
Cool, so you like this film; does this not mean your opinion is bias and one sided?
You implying everyone has to like it is much more bias and one sided than me simply saying I don’t and saying why.
Schizophrenic means “split-minded” and is commonly used to refer to people or even abstract ideas that seem to go in two different ways.
This article is terrible.
This is an awful, terrible, mind-numbing, rage inducing critique on a film while not totally perfect is a mighty fine example of quality summer blockbuster entertainment that holds up very well to multiple viewings.
Having grossed as much money as it has the fact….yes fact….that Marvel has signed Mr Whedon to write and direct the follow-up AND spin-off TV show proves that he didn’t do too bad a job in either the script or directing duties.
The humour contained within the film was a vital element to the likability and humanity of all the characters.
Please do not assume that your opinion is anything close to factual when you clearly have barely enough facts on show within any of your postings.
I can’t understand the logic of wanting more character development, yet wanting to add more characters to the story (bringing back the love interests from the previous movies). How long did you want this movie to be? Any movie with 8 main characters vying for screen time is going to have to cut corners somewhere – did you want there to be no action scenes at all? If you want more Loki time and more Hulk time, where are you going to fit more about Thor and Captain America? I thought Joss did an admirable job balancing things, even though I felt a bit sad that my favorite Avenger (Thor) showed up late. Also, you need to take into account that this story took place over just a few days. Plus the individual movies are the ones that need to tackle the love stories – it would have been a huge letdown to try to cram epic reunions into a brief 2-minute scene.
I don’t agree with this article. To express anything else is wasting time and air.
Don’t worry, Luke. Amongst all the butthurt nerd-rage of Marvel fanboys in the comments, there is someone who completely agrees with you. It’s refreshing to find someone brave enough to hate the Avengers on the internet (because apparently, for some reason, nobody is allowed?)
Ignore the haters! The Avengers is an utterly bland, shallow, superficial, and empty film, devoid of any emotional engagement. They should have called it “Attractive Actors In Costumes Saying Witty Lines”.
(Though I do disagree with you about Kat Dennings in Thor. Her “hip” dialogue about iPods was cringe-worthy.)
Everyone PLEASE grow up! I get so frustrated telling people how transformers/Scott Pilgrim/Red etc failed (or in Transformers sake, sucked major behind) because the guys behind those movies just didn’t get it.
Luke does. He’s trying to save Avengers 2 from sequelitis by teling people what the movie did wrong. But terminal fanboys are going ape.
Joss Whedon’s only other movie is Serenity –how’d that go? The Whedon touch has produced more failures than hits.
Avengers has all the same things that made Serenity bomb– too much humor to the exclusion of all else, an focus on villain etc, directionless in too many places, not capitalizing on the most interesting aspects.
Whedon got lucky on this one, as I said he would. But the “event” aura is gone now. Avengers 2 must stand on its own merit. The Whedonesque quirks won’t be forgiven by general audiences the way they are by the rabid fanboys.
Luke is right on this one, and you are wrong. Deal with it.
exactly. just because a movie is popular doesn’t mean that it’s good (Transformers, Avengers, etc.)
In the last few weeks, there have been several articles posted on this website dedicated to trashing The Dark Knight Rises. In these articles, we read about all the problems with TDKR, and how The Avengers was a much more entertaining film, and how much more complete it was. Now, months later, a 19 year old kid comes up with these utter rubbish points, and we are expected to simply agree with him (take a look at some of the replies from Luke Stevenson on comments made about this article). This website has become pure garbage! (I’m sure Matt Holmes will be here soon to rally)
Awesome point. And the fact I wrote all those Dark KnightRises articles trashing that and bigging up The Avengers only makes your point stronger… Oh wait.
Is it me, or have WhatCulture’s articles become overwhelmingly negative as of late. I’ve pretty much stopped reading. 8/10 articles are lists of why something sucked.
They haven’t gotten more negative, the movies have just gotten worse.
Well they all have their own films for the characcter development, this movies was just for fun.
Why are some people mentioning how much money it made?
How much money a film makes at the box office doesn’t determine how good it is, it just determines how many people entered the cinema. So many poor films have made loads and loads of money while some masterpieces struggle to cross it’s budget. Every has their own taste and most of you are ragging on the author for his opinion, I have not seen this film and will do in the future but not everyone likes the same movie and bashing this guy for not liking a particular film is lunacy. Some of you people need to seriously lighten up and quit ragging on a guy who has just spent his free time writing an article which had a lot of detail to it.
NO MORE STUPID-ASS ONE LINERS, PUNS, BITS, AND SCHTICK. Sorry but I had to get that off my chest.
The Avengers real crime is that it was only marginally better than Thor and Captain America. All of the critical hype would have you believe that it was on par with or even better than superior Marvel films like Spiderman 2, Iron Man or even the more recent X-Men:First Class.
Overall it was a shallow but worthy action flick. There was an opportunity here for a deeper more emotionally complex movie by bringing all these clashing personalities together – but that opportunity was squandered. For all the attention that was paid to the last half of the film with the slick action sequences, it just didn’t make up for the deficit in storytelling that was most apparent in the torturous plodding first half.
I’ve not seen the movie, but I can tell you’re right :-)
“The Avengers” is an action movie.
An action movie is like a porno movie which seek to show action scenes instead of sex scenes.
There is no logic, no characters, just action scenes.
Your suggestions are very good, because what you suggest is making a thriller instead.
Action movies are crap. We all know that. If they are good, we call them thriller :-)
1. What are you talking about? The jokes weren’t one liners and certainly came from the character’s personalities. Hulk completely interrupting Loki’s speech to the point that he leaves him immovable was priceless and hilarious. Every character’s jokes and humour was different, I have no idea what movie you saw. They did have development, it’s called learning to work together as a team, sure the movie could have been longer to give each character a sub plot, but wouldn’t that a be little annoying.
2. Distant? Thor never tried to kill his brother, actually no matter how much of an asshole Loki was he never tried to kill, kick his ass maybe but not kill him. Banner’s issue weren’t “resolved” in one scene (unless you meant his controlled transformation to hulk), though I do think we should have gotten more of Cap dealing with the modern world, those scenes were cut. And what are you talking about Stark’s girlfriend running off? Running off where? She saw he needed to work with what shield needed him for and didn’t want to get in the way, seriously what did you watch?
3. Wait, you wanting development from the 4 main heroes, the other supporting characters, and the villain is one thing, but the alien army having development too? Seriously, their only importance is to conquer the universe, do they need to be more sympathetic, of course not because we want to cheer for the avengers. Besides they needed earth because that’s where the cube was, that’s why it’s so desirable. Seriously do you know how to pay any attention?
4. Ok, I’ll agree Paltrow was missed, well not too much, but some more scenes with here would have been nice. Besides what more could she and Dennings do other than being the damsels in distress or just worry about what’s happening to our heroes. Now you’re just looking for errors where there are none.
5. Wait, not only did you see a completely different movie, but you seem to be from a completely different world. Check Wikipedia and pretty much any site and you’ll see Hulk was the stand out character, He owned the third act and everyone knows it, he was hilarious, he was bad ass, he was everything we wanted him to be. Seriously, what movie did you see?
Did you even pay attention?
I’m pretty sure that Joss would have added more women if he could have. His made for TV Shield movie certainly has more women, and he’s well known for writing strong female characters.
I’m wondering if he was limited by the studios nixing certain characters, or the rights to the Avengers including certain characters but not others in the Marvel-Verse. It’s part of the problem with these types of contracts, and the fact that Marvel licensed their film franchises to different studios certainly can’t have helped.
I loved the Avengers. Not everyone will. I’m okay with you writing this article. But I do have issues with pouting about how Joss didn’t add in enough women without knowing why he didn’t. Kitty Pryde was one of the main influences for Buffy, he’s written for Astonishing X-Men with incredible success, with incredibly strong main and supporting women characters – and yet there were barely any in The Avengers. I’m sort of hesitant to pin the blame on Joss here. (Not that you blamed him – but neither did you explore why there weren’t that many females, so I assumed you blamed Joss and no one else.)
I also take slight issue with your bitching about lack of females who act ‘not manly’ and then go on about how it would be so easy to bring in a love interest. Well, that sounds 1. sexist (why can’t a woman kick as much ass, and why does she have to be in the house, looking pretty), and 2. like you’re jamming women in there to have them there. Also, rolls eyes, the whole point of Pepper was the love interest – and it was unnecessary, quite frankly. I could have lived without her in the movie without feeling like I’d missed anything. Rather than some random love story, I’d love to see a woman who was, I dunno, something other than simple eye candy/a damsel in distress.
Why do I get the feeling this was written by someone with a nerd lisp.
Thank you for this article! This is exactly how I felt leaving this movie, and that’s coming from a long time marvel comics fan who waited many years for this movie. I’m also a person who very much enjoys action movies where one must turn the critical thinking portion of the brain off, in Conan and Suckerpunch you could just enjoy the action, this movie was just insulting. The Avengers will be remembered years from in the lists of worst high production/hype movies, along with Thor and Captain America they are the worst superhero movies to date. Iron Man and the first X Men are the greatest.
Moreover, any real marvel fanboy does not like this movie. I mean, Nick Fury is the greatest developed character ever in the marvel universe, and no disrespect to Samuel L. Jackson, but Joss ruined the nick fury character in just one scene.
Avengers was shallow at best transformers at worst
So you want The Avengers 2 to be a four hour long romantic-drama where all the characters get the exact same amount of screen time. Just how boring of a person are you?
That’s the impression you’re giving most people.
So you want The Avengers 2 to be a four hour long romantic-drama with all of the characters getting the exact same amount of screen time. Just how boring of a person are you?
That’s the impression you’re giving most people.
The Avengers is, in my opinion a fun kid’s movie with lots of action and great visual effects; but a weak story and a strong focus on lame childish humour (the hulk smash on Loki, does anyone other than 5 year olds find it funny?).
Great action and visuals, but weak story and weak characters (before the movies came out all of these characters were B-Listers at best).
Overall it’s a solid 3/5 film, but no different from Transformers (all action and no story). Can’t see how this movie is rated any differently
The few factual statements in the article are right on, but the majority is subjective opinion wearing a latex mask and trenchcoat trying to masquerade as fact.
The flaw in the article is that Luke felt Avengers was a failed character film. But it was never intended to be a character piece – that’s what Iron Man, Thor, Captain America, and 2 Hulk movies were for. (I didn’t say they succeeded, I said those films are where the character development was to occur).
Avengers was an action film and that’s all it was supposed to be. In short, it was a comic book. A team comic book. In any one-shot graphic novel, you’re not going to get six characters fully fleshed out development arcs, throw in a love story, make sure the bad guy has Stanislavski-esque levels of motivation, and include enough fan service to carry a 2.5 hour franchise film.
Instead, there are character moments – each character had one scene where an aspect of their characterization was highlighted, a chance to see beyond their surface. Black Widow’s was wonderful and subtly played – without a hint of machismo or trying to be one of the boys.
I’m gonna have to close with, I know that just because something’s popular doesn’t mean it’s quality – hey, look at McDonald’s. But it does mean it achieves it’s goal. And 1.5 BILLION dollars in worldwide theatre tickets (not including video sale/rentals) says most people respectfully hold different opinions.