Let’s get this out of the way right away – The Dark Knight Rises has its moments. It features some truly mind-blowing sequences and you can’t fault director Christopher Nolan’s dedication to creating a spectacle befitting the ceremonial importance of the final film in a trilogy. But unfortunately, you can fault him and his script-writing team for a number of other things that made the film far from flawless.
I’m sick of being told my problems with The Dark Knight Rises are no more than the exasperated frustrations of an unpleasable fan-boy, spouting venom about a film that was always doomed to fail because of my loaded expectations and my desire for something perfectly formed. That isn’t it at all, and as further reviews have come in, and more and more people have expressed dissatisfaction at Nolan’s trilogy-ender, I feel that my own reading of the film has found its kin. I am no disgruntled voice in the dark, no small island resisting a tidal wave of positive reviews, and my dissatisfaction is based on logical and technical flaws, and not empty anger.
And of course this wasn’t the only flawed film, riddled with plot-holes, it’s just impossible to ignore the ceremony attached to the film. It was supposed to be a fitting end to the trilogy, tying everything up and adding an appropriate full-stop to the biggest film trilogy of the past decade, and as a result every problem was magnified. But then, unthinkably, some of the problems were already glaring enough in their own regard.
Ranging from the huge gaping holes in the plot which made a lot of critics unhappy, to the silly, but still frustrating nit-picking points that just left a slight sense of bewilderment, this is a not quite definitive look at the most annoying questions left after the end of The Dark Knight Rises…
You might have heard some of them before, but that doesn’t make them any less pressing. And no, “how does Bane eat?” didn’t make the short-list in the end. Click next to reveal all.
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89 Comments
Well played…well played.
I saw two films in the week I saw the Dark Knight Rises… and one of them was Madagascar 3… It speaks volumes that I was more impressed with Madagascar 3 despite not even having seen the previous ones, or having any intention to see this film prior to a quick “uh, let’s go see a film”. On the other hand I had been looking forward to the DNR for months, had liked the previous two batman movies, and was then sucker punched by the farcical garbage that lay before me in a convoluted and disorganised mess.
The only redeeming feature of the movie was when Amanda said to Bruce she was Ra’s (mispronounced in the movies…) Al Ghul’s daughter and I turned to my girlfriend in the cinema and said “what? Ra’s's daughter is called Talia goddammit!” then she said her name was Talia… *like a bawss*
Thank you for this. This is the article we both needed and deserved right now. I hate the supports of this film’s counter arguments are “you expected to much from it.” They never offer a cogent counter argument just “I liked it so criticism of it is invalid”. Fanboy wankery at its worst.
I super-agree with points 1-5.
talia told him. bane went there after she visited.
How did Bruce Wayne get to Bhutan?
INDIA joerk off!!! not Bhutan… How are u guys so ignorant… probably cos u live in some random part o the world.
Wow…seriously the best response ever. Kudos Devansh.
Much better than Stewart Bedford, a more logical analysis than fan boy excess. I agree with pretty much every point. Although I will allow in certain incidents the whole ‘thy are just really clever baddies’ and ‘he’s batman’ for some suspension of belief, but yeah theres a few too many for my liking.
Quite Frankly I think the movie sucked! let me just establish the fact that I am a die-hard Batman fan. So it really pained me to see that movie.I think there are some points you could have added. My biggest pet peeve of the movie was that Bruce Wayne would give up being Batman to live happily ever after??.Just to let you know where I’m coming from. In Justice League (animated series)The League tried to recruit Batman he said “No I got my own problems right here in Gotham!” The idea that he would rather protect his own little city than the WORLD is just awesome why?? because when he did join the JL it was part-time and the big picture no world= no Gotham .Also in every incarnation of Batman he’s always there. When he couldn’t do it alone he got Robin, when the 2 of them couldn’t do it alone they added Batgirl even in Batman Beyond where he’s an old ass man he’s still there in Terry’s ear guiding him via bluetooth in his 80′s!! So lets start there…plus the movie was boring as hell. Slow paced , too many characters that didn’t matter, characters that if you took out wouldn’t have made any difference like Daggett, Talia, Mathew Modine’s character,DOCTOR who created the bomb AND Scarecrow!! Like for example why was the Scarecrow even holding trials? Here’s my List….:
1.What was Talia and Bane’s escape plan? how did they plan on leaving when the Bomb exploded?? were they going to die with the the city??
2. Can somebody explain the Wallstreet scene to me?When Bane was on Wall Sreet taking Wayne’s info (which nobody seems to know) Couldn’t he have just said “it’s fraud and filed an investigation? I didn’t clear that” and he has like 500 witnesses to prove it because they saw Bane and his goons raid the NY stock exchange.One minute the suns up the next minute it’s pitch black
3.Harvey Dent act ok why did Commissioner Gordon wait 8 YEARS TO MAKE THE SPEECH? and tell what happened when Dent was killed?
4.Batman had time to make a perfect Bat signal out of gasoline on top of the bridge! which must have taken like 4 hours to get just right! Mind you there’s a bomb ticking away and time is of the essence.
5.Bane blowing up the football stadium….where was security? Not to mention as he’s talking to the stadium they are all standing there listing attentively AND… the cameraman (tv camera not the movie camera) standing in Bane’s face so they can see Bane’s face on the Stadium screens maybe that was planned.
7. The Flashbacks. Thy flash backed too much..Bane, Alfred, Talia, Bruce, Gordon. That’s why peple didn’t take the endng seriously.No flasback in TDK
8.The Whole police force beeing in the tunnel for 5 months?
9. Bane telling Gotham City that Gordon’s been lying to them all that time…who cares at that point you blew up a football stadium and bridges and you’re about to blow up the city you tink they care about something that happened 8 years ago?
10. Robin? John Blake seems like a nice guy but he sensed that Bruce was Batman? are you ripping me??it’s 12 million ppl in Gotham Batman coulda been anybody! Coulda been one of Falcone’s men! Bruce Wayne didn’t even deny it or give him a ” whatchu talkin’ bout?” mind you Wayne never even met his dude before.Plus…can he even fight? I mean think about all that Batman did to become Batman, the training, psychology, the VOICE ,the suit. Wayne never left a transcript?
Maybe I’m overthinking it but…I can’t remember having this many problems with Begins or TDK
haha I thought TDKR was a masterpiece but let me try to answer some of your questions.
1) Talia and Bane were ready to die with the city they destroyed.
2) He did the Wall Street to bankrupt Bruce Wayne so Talia can take control. He also did it to get the money and workers from John Dagget’s company.
3) He felt so guilty but he saw how much good it was doing Gotham. After all, it wiped out organized crime. Also, he was just ashamed.
4) Thats not very important but he did it to restore faith in people.
5) Bane’s men are assassins of the League of Shadows… they could easily overpower security.
7) I thought the amount of flashbacks were appropriate to explain Talias and Banes origins. TDK didn’t explain the Joker’s origins. He was just presented as an absolute.
8) It presented how severe Banes revolution is. Plus silly Gordon wanted to catch Bane after his experience so he sent all the cops down there.
9) I mean… It doesn’t really affect the movie but yes they probably would’ve.
10) Bruce didn’t deny it because he was tired of hiding and his previous experiences hurt him. But it really isn’t revealed.
I agree with you Shawn T. that the biggest issue was Batman leaving Gotham.
I imagine the ending as when Robin enters the cave, he is greeted by Bruce in a wheelchair who says “Are you ready to begin?”. I would have felt so much better about the film if Nolan did that.
On Blake, he knew because of his own experience with his father’s death and figured out that a man that lost his folks in a violent death would be Batman. Logic= Bruce Wayne
Bane knowing about applied sciences probably comes from the fact that Miranda Tate (Talia Al Ghul) is made the executive of Wayne industries and Bruce wanting to make sure she knows what they have to protect.
Bane knowing who Batman is is peculiar; but he just knows who he is in the Knightfall series without explanation, so who knows.
As for Bruce Wayne’s knee, did you ever complain to your dad ‘Oo my hand hurts’ so he’d flick you in the ear and say ‘Now you’re not thinking about your hand’, maybe it’s that kind of thing. Once a man knees your back out of place a bad leg is the last of your worries.
Handing over the reigns to a hot-head is probably only a way to make the next movies more interesting if he has a different dynamic.
I agree though, there are some huge plotholes in this film. How he got in to Gotham baffles me, more bafflingly I can’t comprehend how they felt that wasn’t worth mentioning.
Seriously even though I disagree with some points, I respect your opinion and the list. With 1 exception.
I don’t want to insult you but nr. 7 is such a dumb point which makes the list look like a whine-thread.
Back to topic:
There are OVER 1000 BILLIONAIRES in this planet from everywhere. Over 1000.
Maybe I’m not that much of a wallstreet-yuppie but do you know them? I mean do you know them by the name and by their looks? And furthermore, would you recognize them in normal clothes somewhere in the middle of middle-europe drinking a cafee?
Ever since that Joe Chill got killed, he’s been hiding from public for more than 7 years to become Batman, to come back for like 2 years just to disappear again for 8.
Believe me, people in Europe are not that obsessed with billionaires from north-america.
*applause!*
Does anyone else think that the scene depicting an active ticking nuclear device being transported away from a city through a helicopter,while the pilot jumps out at the last minute,has a great resemblance to “Angels and Demons” climax scene?
Yes! I spotted that as well! (Note in this case it was ‘the Bat’! :P) Another deja vu scene was that of the american football field being destroyed with one player not realising until he has completed the touchdown! (Could have been in the 2009 disaster film ’2012′ but not sure… Actually just watched almost the whole destruction scene on youtube and didn’t find it there.. arghhh.. any help?)
Want… doesn’t get.
Excellent points, all.
Auto-pilot or not, Batman should have been barbequed by that nuclear explosion, and to not show a single flicker of a means of escape is lazy filmmaking on Nolan’s part, and I was disappointed by that fix-it-in-editing approach.
I also wonder how all those cops, stuck underground for months on end without showering or exposure to sunlight, come out of the sewers with no beards or facial hair, ha ha.
And HELL YES to the insanity of the hilariously-outgunned Gotham PD running directly towards Bane’s machine-gun-toting army… and Bane’s army not being able to mow them all down instantly (plus with the help of their two stolen Batmobile tanks, yet oddly, only one exploded by the Bat’s missile.)
Christopher Nolan, methinks you have some ‘xplainin to do.
batman took out all of their heavy automatic artillery with the bat’s emp, and lots of police DID get mowed down but there was a crap load closing the distant without fear, so close quarter combat was gonna happen. and gotham pd clearly always keep disposable razors and shaving cream in case of emergencies like those. real life military aircraft at max speed can travel faster than 8 miles a min, so the bat being a make believe hybrid of imaginary technology, its not all that unbelievable that he would have cleared the city and the blast radius before the explosion hit.
I’m so validated by these comments. Nolan is the new Lucas.
Thought Id give a shot at answering your questions:
1] How Did Bane Know Where Applied Sciences Was? As mentioned in the comments Talia was pretty tight with Wayne Enterprises.
2] How Did Bruce Wayne Get Back In To Gotham? I think they mention in the film several months pass so its not unreasonable he got back and it would have taken up unnecessary time to put it in the film.
3] Why Did Batman Send Blake’s Kids To The Bridge, When The Tunnel Was About to be Opened? This didn’t stand out to me in the film and seems like a minor discrepancy, maybe he didn’t really think well enough considering he had a nuclear bomb to get rid of.
4] How Did Talia & Bane Know Bruce Wayne Was Batman? I think this was intended to show their genius/cunningness as villains since in comicbooks only the most brilliant villains ever discover the secret identities. But they probably figured it out through the League of Shadows knowing how Bruce was trained and how Batman fought equalled the same thing.
5] How The Dickens Did Batman Survive The Bomb? Ive heard this before people saying “even with the auto-pilot” he couldnt but duh! the auto-pilot means he could have ejected over the city before the Bat even went out to sea.
6] How Did Everyone Explain Bruce Wayne’s Death? This is easy cuz the city just lost probably hundreds if not thousands of citizens.
7] How Come Billionaire Philanthropist Bruce Wayne Wasn’t Recognised In That Cafe? This was answered perfectly by another commenter.
8] Who Teaches Assault Tactics To Gotham PD? Good point, I can only say that police aren’t trained to handle full on Guerrilla warfare which is akin to what Bane was in part doing at the beginning, nor are they trained to be Guerrilla fighters which is what they (some of them) do a pretty ok job of being by the end.
9] What Special Regenerative Drugs Is Bruce Wayne On And Where Can I Get Some? It does seem odd but Muscle-Memory is pretty real, if you have ever seen an athletic muscular person who lost weight start training again they bulk up quicker than people who don’t have a history of athletic competition.
10] Wasn’t Giving Blake The Keys To The Bat-Cave INCREDIBLY Irresponsible? This is an interesting point but completely overshadowed by the awesomeness of the ending in which it takes place.
I was left so cold from The Dark Knight Rises that i am even surprised people are still talking about it. Just let it sink into oblivion like all dull movies do.
1) Bane could have known where applied science was through any set of clues centered around his knowledge that Bruce Wayne was Batman. He would probably conclude that Batman’s gadgets are either at or near his house or place of work. At that point all you would have to do is get Miranda Tate to inquire about where Applied Science was housed and thus Bane would know where it is.
2) Bane held Gotham city for months. It is not unreasonable to assume he let some supplies in and therefore Bruce disguises himself as a someone delivering supplies or within the containers themselves and does not leave.
3) Assuming the bus made it to the tunnel it is unclear if the kids would have been protected if attacked by Banes goons. By gambling that the soldiers on the bridge would listen to reason (Batman believes people are generally good) the soldiers would also provide some protection for the kids if Bane saw them escaping and reacted negatively.
4) Talia and Bane knew Bruce was Batman. From the moment that Ra’s Al Gul knew, he would obviously tell EVERY member of the League of Shadows. I am sure he had a telephone or at least access to one before he died.
5) If I am unmistaken, during the scene it shows Batman, then cuts to the few second countdown. This is a bit of cheating on the part of Nolan to make people believe he was still in the craft but actually what happened before the five second countdown is unrevealed since we don’t know when Batman might have ejected.
6) This one is easy…Bane was killing all of the rich people in Gotham PRIOR to the death of Batman…by exile or death which was the same thing. Bruce was rich!
7) Just because he is a billionaire, does not mean he is recognizable especially abroad. I could not name a billionaire living abroad even though there is a Saudi Prince that I kind of know about. But I would have to look up his name and certainly would not just recognize him. And even if someone or a few people knew what he looked like, that does not mean it is him. Plenty of people look like famous people and that is how it would be dismissed.
8) I believe that is the Metropolis PD
9) There is no way to ascertain Batman’s physical condition from a theater seat. Was he walking with a cane because he HAD to or just because it relieved some pain. Who knows? Assuming that he could not return to form is speculative (in the movie).
10) This questions seems to assume that Blake is dumb enough to go out and use it without any training. With most things whether it is riding a bike or driving a car…you train first then take it out on the highway once you have developed a comfort level with it.
I don’t really see these as plot holes at all. I have never been one to think that a movie has to answer ALL of the details of the plot. One can infer activities which is fine…it’s a movie! On a side note there is ONE plot issue that I do have with the Batman trilogy that I have thus far NEVER heard or read anyone address (which does not mean it has not been)… and it does not even occur in the Dark Knight Rises. It is this… in the Dark Knight, Batman saves the Joker from falling to his death. Yet, in Batman Begins, he does not save Ra’s Al Gul (a person he was once close to and he saved once before). One could say he was not in a position to save Ra’s Al Gul, but actually he even says he’s not going to save him implying that he could have if he wanted. I think this is kind of a big yet also very subtle character transition in the film series… one that I can’t quite find a reasoning to justify one action and then a completely different one in nearly the same circumstance. If anything you would expect the opposite result. But it’s a movie!
Thats a good point about how Batman handles Ras as opposed to the Joker. I think you nail by labeling it as a character transition. There are a couple of interesting things that come up from this too which I hadnt considered. A) lets be clear the situations were different in that Batman didnt put Ras in danger of death and simply made the choice to escape danger himself, while the Joker was basically tossed from the building BY Batman so he was directly responsible if he went splat. B) Both Ras and Joker were each testing Batman to try and get him to kill, with Ras Batman realizes he only has to CHOOSE to not save him but perhaps this doesnt sit well with Batman when the Joker uses this same logic to try to make him kill “killing is a choice” making him choose between Rachel or Harvey. I think this may have pushed Batman into a more save everybody kind of mentality, so in a way the Joker pushes him further into the no killing stance he developed under Ras.
Also, maybe the difference between the Joker and Ra’s, is that Ra’s was in some way “guilty” for the death of Bruce’s parents, as stated to Bruce himself when he says “we tried a new weapon with Gotham; economics, but didn’t account for people like your parents”, etc. etc.
The Joker was just mad, or whatever you want to call it and didn’t had something to do with Bruce’s parents death.
1. Talia told him after she took over as head of Wayne Enterprises and Lucius Fox either showed her or she used her access to find out.
2. Probably he went to Wayne Manor, which is outside the city limits, and used Bat Tech to sneak back in over the ice.
3. Got nothing for that one.
4. R’as had his thugs burn down Bruce’s mansion in BB so probably the whole League knew.
5. He ejected and we just didn’t see it. As to the rest — Hollywood physics.
6. Probably he “died” in the riots.
7. Everyone thinks he’s dead, and celebs aren’t always recognized, particularly if you’re not looking for them. People just think he bears a remarkable resemblence to Wayne.
8. Yeah, that was stupid.
9. Hollywood medicine.
10. Blake seems to be the responsible sort — I don’t think he’d harm the good guys with his bat tech, and anyway it’s not like Batman had a great relationship with the GCPD himself. Maybe Wayne will train him?
The argument that Talia told Bane after becoming head of Wayne Enterprises isn’t accurate in my opinion, because Bane’s plan to tunnel under Applied Sciences was already well under way before that even happened.
I’ve seen the film once – I didn’t go in looking for the problems, I was in fact hugely excited about the film before I saw it. The idea that I consciously went in looking to pick it a part is the same argument that makes all of those who enjoyed it believe they have the high-ground over those who didnn’t. It is merely a matter of opinion. I am not saying you are wrong, but your approach to “debate” is clearly wrong.
And I actually don’t live with my mom, she left too many questions unanswered…
Bumping an old thread, I know, but in reference to your last sentence in that reply:
“Well played, sir.”
And I agree that just because “it’s a movie,” that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t look at it for quality. If we followed that logic, we couldn’t complain about anything that’s not life-threatening:
- Did McDonald’s get every single part of your order wrong AND overcharge you by 50%? Hey, it’s only a meal!
- Did some dude reach over and tear the sleeve off your shirt and grin at you? Hey, it’s only cloth!
- Did a highly-paid athlete show zero professionalism and will to win? Hey, it’s only a game!
- Did someone steal $100 out of your wallet? Hey, it’s only money!
None of those are life-threatening to most of us. All of those would matter to most of us (some of us would only care about the football player because of the principle and his income).
TDKR was a movie. Made by a professional (actually a huge team of them). It was the climax of a trilogy of well-made movies. Expecting quality is not out of order. And, yes, some things should have been fixed with some efficient dialogue – this is an all-too-common flaw in movies lately.
Neither Dagget or the other members of the board knew about Applied Sciences. Reese did, but only a financial trail, not an actual location.
Look, knowing the various locations of Wayne Enterprises and there factories and stuff would help. Once you find that out, I dont think it would be that difficult for master strategists like the League of Shadows to determine where applied sciences is.
Check this wonderful article out to supply some answers:
http://www.nolanfans.com/2012/07/26/15-things-that-didnt-bother-us-about-the-dark-knight-rises/#more-9132
I can refute most of your points pretty darn well, but I picked this one above all others: “Actually, come to think of it, why didn’t Wayne just casually usher all of Gotham’s inhabitants out of the city the same way he miraculously got back in?”
So, because one man is able to get back into a closed city, you think it’s reasonable that millions could get out the same way said man got in? Sorry, but that’s absurd. Just because one man can get back in doesn’t mean millions more could be ushered out. I needn’t explain why that’s such an illogical concept, but I’ll give you a real life example. In WWII, individuals were tasked to sneak into various prison camps, cities, etc., to subvert their enemies and help the people imprisoned, occasionally helping individuals or small groups escape from the millions inside. Would you ask them why they didn’t just get all those people out the same way individual agents got in? If it were so easy, things would have been a lot different.
That was a joke, my friend.
why does THE FRIGGIN BATMAN! master of stealth and infiltration get so much headache for sneaking into gotham undetected, but everybody was totally alright with however those 3 navy seals mysteriously made it in. And why does everyone trip on how bruce survived without all his money and supplies before he made it in the city. maybe the same way he survived after he left it all behind to train and become batman, except only better cause he knows how to survive with out supplies. oh wait how does batman disappear when people aren’t looking at him? how do we know bruce eats if they dont show him getting his 3 meals a day? shame on you christopher nolan! bad writing. quit complaining you know you love batman.
Maybe because Nolan’s Batman is pretty much a buffon? The real Batman IS a master of stealth like the Shadow. He DOES have a with comparable to Sherlock Holmes. He DOES think ahead and build all his own stuff like Doc Savage. He IS a man who swore an oath on his parents grave and DOESN’T spend half his time wanting to NOT be Batman anymore. He may have doubts now and then but not the Nolan/Bale whining (er excuse cloaked as “deep” insight). Anyways the problem is Nolan’s Batman ain’t the real Batman. Maybe someday we will get to see the definitive Batman on screen. It still hasn’t happened but maybe someday…….
I get where you’re coming from with the argument “Because it’s Batman!!” but honestly, it has some validity. When we have an established character, who the audience knows and begins to assume all kinds of abilities, does the storyteller have to explain them all? To a certain extent, I think using the argument “Because it’s Batman!!” is valid in a lot of your critical points. How does he get back in the city? Because he’s Batman. No seriously, because he’s Batman. What do we know about this Batman as a character? Genius intellect. Cunning tactical skills. Lots of connections. He’s Batman! Frankly, I don’t think that’s such an absurd argument, as long as you know how to use it. I’ve seen the film twice now, and until I had read your criticism of how he got back in, it hadn’t even occurred to me to care how he got back in.
By the way, the real, no BS answer to how he got back in the city is………. seriously, no joke……… Superman flew him in. Ya’know, Justice League and all.
#7 is easily explained by a crossover. Christian Bale also starred in American Psycho. Half of that story was that nobody recognizes anyone. So, nobody recognizes Bale, which is Wayne.
Anyway, abut #6 I always assumed – Wayne was rich, at the time everyone rich was hunted, he might have been easily killed by some random psycho.
What I’d like to now (maybe I missed this in the movie): 1) Where does Selina know Bane from and 2) How does Batman know Selina knows Bane?
I think he ejects from the bat right away before going out to sea. There is an explosion right by a building that is unexplained when the kids see the bat from the bus. I assumed right away that he created that explosion to distract people from seeing him eject. The shot of him in the cockpit after this is meant to mislead. I truly cannot believe all the bitching about this movie. I loved it. Yes, some stuff is inexplainable. I’d like someone to have a similar post regarding half the nonsense that happened in any other comic book movie.
You fanboys crack me up. We’re seeing plotholes based on the images, dialogue, etc. presented on screen. You can imagine anything to fill the plotholes but you aren’t providing examples found within the primary text of the movie itself, which is the point of the article.
Here let’s use you’re guys logic to fill in the blankets.
Batman got back into Gotham because, while in the desert, his true father Zeus revealed himself to him and provided Batman with the mythical winged horse pegasus. Pegasus dropped Batman into the mystical healing waters of a spring in mount Olympus where his leg was mended so he no longer had to limp, he was given a clean shave and a nicely tailored suit. Pegasus tehn dropped wayne into Gotham safe and sound.
Bane knew of the applied science wing despite Fox explicitly stating in the movie that only himself and wayne were aware of its location because Bane stole a leprechaun’s pot of gold. The Leprechaun was obligated to grant Bane one wish and his was to know about the applied science division that nobody else besides two people in the whole world knew about. How Bane knew it existed in the first place? Bane was given the power cosmic briefly by Galactus during a trip to saturn.
Batman escaped the explosion despite clearly being depicted in the cockpit after he flew past the exploding building and was above the water because superman flew in a speed so fast human eyes wouldn’t be able to see them and rescued batman.
Explained. So quit criticizing and enjoy the film!
they arent really plot-holes if reasonable logic based on the films plot can explain them, besides would you really want to watch a movie that went in detail on screen explaining visually every little transition for the unimaginative? it would be the most boring experience ever.
The point is they can’t be logically explained by the script. None of the explanation anyone’s given is rooted in details provided onscreen. It’s called being logical not unimaginative. You blindly love the film. That’s fine. But some of us have taste and understand story. That’s all.
classic. damn moron fanboys with their ‘fill in the plot holes’ imagination. So many of the “it’s just a film, get a life” comment when you happen to critic their fav superhero film, as if it is now totally unreasonable to expect a film to have proper storyline,logic, pacing and decent direction. this is 21st century mass stupidity of the video game generation at it’s finest.
About #2, I think he used his Bat-Credit Card to get back. Never leave the Cave without it. xD
@t
why oh why does everything need to be logically explained by the script. It’s as if when you grew up you forgot how to use your imagination. I understood the story completely even with your supposed “plot holes” along with every other person that has their imagination perfectly intact. All I’m trying to say is go to a movie and forget about trying to find something wrong with the film so you can complain about it.
Just remeber these words straight from Sir Michael Caine himself “if you pretend to have fun, you just might have a little on accident”
hehe i think though cain said something else relevant here, some men arent interested in having fun “some men just want to watch the world burn”, oh well, haters gonna hate ))
Okay, last time I’m going to break it down. When plot points in a film, book, television show, etc. contradict the internal logic/established rules of the narrative then it ruins any suspension of disbelief. For instance, Batman returning to Gotham. The movie painstakingly established that Gotham was locked down to the extent that the soldiers who entered Gotham had to be smuggled into the city via a supply transport. The idea of Gotham being sealed and underseige can only work if we assume that Bane has the city locked down to such an extent that no one can safely exit or enter it without him finding out and blowing the city up. THIS IS THE PREMISE OF LAST TWO ACTS OF THE FILM. So batman abruptly showing up without explanation almost entirely invalids the preceding drama. It spits in the face of anyone who actually paid attention to this debacle, which I guess was only me and a handful of others.
You, sir/madame are a man/woman after my own heart.
Ill give you some of the points made in the article bring up inexplicable things in the plot like how anyone would think sending every single police officer into the sewers was a good idea i still dont get. Other points though like the one you chose just now are explicitly obviously explained based on the Nolan Batman films and even within the TDKR. Batman was trained basically by ninjas, he is seen numerous times vanishing and reappearing to surprise people so him sneaking into a city on lockdown is not a stretch even in the slightest. Also some things are explained by our own reality like how he got from whatever part of the world he was imprisoned back to Gotham is simple since even I can get from point A to point B anywhere on the globe in under a month even without money a resourceful person can find a way. So saying this is a plot hole is like saying its a plot hole that they didnt explain how bullets work or how the batmobile’s engine works. This isnt of course to say the film is perfect there certainly are some valid points to question.
Simon, I think you are a great writer and enjoyed reading your comments for the sarcasm and wit, but they aren’t valid criticisms of a movie that is based on a comic book.. a fantastic whimsical comic book. Why would I care how batman got back to Gotham when flipping through the colored pages of a comic book? I would just be excited and impressed that he’s back and anxiously turn the page to see what happens next!
Why couldn’t TDKR have one of those funny endings?! Hilarious stuff!
http://moviepilot.com/stories/583348-the-dark-knight-rises-parody-offers-alternate-endings
I actually did pay very close attention to that and I understand that completely, but how the hell else would we have gotten to see the final scenes where Batman saves Gotham. By your logic the film should have ended when bane took over the city. I know that I wouldn’t have wanted the film drag on for another 30-45 minutes watching Bruce Wayne get back to the city, that would have been unnecessary.
I’ve seen the movie twice now. I liked it because it actually felt like I was watching a comic book come to life. The corny dialog, bane’s bizarre mask, cat woman’s purrfect body, the ticking time bomb, the police clash with banes army of converts, plain old good vs evil with bam, pow, zowie, fight scenes, and of course in the end the Bat Man saves the day. I hope he really did escape the blast, and we see Commissioner Gordon shine the Bat Light one more time. Bring on Robin the Boy Wonder! Holy-oli-olio’s Batman!
It is great to see this site is finally getting the attention it deserves!
Keep up the excellent work.
1 and 2 are real problems, real gaps. Some of the other points are annoying, but some slack and suspension of disbelief can fix that to some extent. The most important other gripes I had:
Why does Batman trust Talia al Ghul with his company and Selina Kyle with Gotham? The script just doesn’t give enough reason for him to do that. It seems like he just trusts them because of a feeling (eg having the hots for them).
Why does Batman approach Bane barehanded, while he could reason that Bane is very strong and he walked with a cane not too long ago? For safety reasons, he could just have an escape plan, bring a real weapon, etc.
Batmans endless hypocrisy about killing.
Too many people know that Batman is in this film.
Why build a fusion reactor that can turn into a bomb?
tsunami doesnt occur after a nuclear explosion
its because nuclear bombs are disastrous due to their radiation & not due to some force which would result into tsunami
source : imdb & self information
gee man, you’re typical of the current generation of videogame morons, happy to pay money to have crap thrown at you. His points DO have weight, yours just sounds like a dumb fanboy comment “oh it’s just a film, what the big deal about stupid plot holes?”
Interesting read about the 10 questions we want answered from the Dark Knight Rises
I for one, went in the film to enjoy it, to savour the epic event that was on screen as opposed to picking out flaws and plot holes/loops etc.
I may do that the 2nd time i view the film, or possibly further viewings down the line.
I would sort of argue some of the points, but i think a lot of posters have done that already!
If i remember correctly Bruce Wayne and Lucius Fox showed the reactor to Talia al Gul (Miranda). In the end it is revealed that Bane was working for her. So its obvious how Bane knows about it.
Well it isn’t hard for me to agree because I haven’t been a fan of any of Nolan’s Bat films. The first one was OK up until the point that Gordon drives the batmobile but the real problem in a ll of them is Batman himself. The character is represented badly. He isn’t all that smart, his fighting skills are pretty one note, he gets others to build all his stuff, he is basically a armored thug. Thanks but no thanks. Hopefully a re boot will give us the definitive Batman because it still has yet to be done. There is that sweet spot from the Aparo, Adams years of a more dark Batman, BUT without losing his essence of what he is either AND what he is capable of.
TDKR is by far the worst of three and I am glad this thing is done.
this is one of the best articles i have read on what culture…don’t get me wrong, l did like the film very well, but the litany of apologists on message boards are ridiculous….the strongest point to take away from the article is like he said, we all loved these films because he was crafting a heavy, realistic and emotional version of batman that we hadn’t ever seen on film, to turn around and negate most of that through some of the acts listed here should illicit some form of negative response from the true vocal fans of the films, simply because they fly in the face of what he was setting up….was it ‘still fun’? of course, but it wasn’t a perfect masterpiece by any stretch, and whether that’s down to the script, or the editors, or nolan himself, the buck stopped with him, and there were storylines that could’ve been dropped (matt modine’s) to make time for better explanations to these things…i personally wouldn’t have even minded another half hour run time, unlike a lot of people…..one other thing that i noticed that was kind’ve janky to me, and someone please explain this to me if i’m wrong here, but towards the end you have the wayne enterprises crew held in the top floor of the tower, including lucius & miranda, miranda then appears in scarecrow’s courtroom with bane, where he then takes her hostage, when we next see her, she is exactly where she was before in the top floor of wayne enterprises, like she had never left & been taken by bane….did i miss something here or is it shoddy editing?
1/ Talhia told Bane about Wayne. Remember she was able to bet on the Wayne board. That is how Bane knows about the interior of Wayne enterprises
2/My guess is the auto on the Bat jet
3/Blake took the kids on his own to test the limits of the police on the other side.
4/ Raj or someon in the League of shadows told Tahlia and Bane about Bruce. DUH!
5/Bat Auto again
6/Alfred, Lucious, and Gordon may have made a cover story for Bruce’s death
7/The only one at the restaurant that knew Bruce was Alfred.
8/It was done to make Gotham police be like the police of today
9/I am not sure about that one. The doctor in the pit may have knew some healing techniques.
10/Blake showed he was a worthy successor. Bruce may have been waiting for him in the cave and gave him some training.
Questions we still want answered? None of these questions even mattered. All I read was an article from a lonely asshole with nothing better to do then to take a great film and discredit it, its not Nolans fault you can’t get laid. I challenge you to do better, good luck.
I don’t think anyone would be surprised that rich-boy Bruce Wayne was killed at some point in the siege of Gotham. It probably took everyone a long time to sort everything out, and he was just one casualty on what is probably a very long list. I would probably suspect one of the dead cops to be batman before bruce wayne
1. Miranda/Talia knew where it was. Fox showed her, so obviously she told Bane.
2. Quite frankly, I’m ok with the “He’s Batman” explanation, but if you MUST – remember when they told the national guardsman at the bridge that they didn’t have enough people to keep watch? Well, they can’t watch everywhere all the time. He’s also a ninja, remember.
3. Two ways out of the city, you don’t want a bottle neck. He sent Selina to open the tunnel, and Blake to open the bridge.
4. Miranda knew because her father knew. Remember, the League has been around for 1,000′s of years with many different leaders so, the league now reports to Talia instead of Ra’s. So even if Ra’s never spoke to Talia between Ra’s training Bruce and Ra’s dying, then one of the other League members would’ve told her.
5. In the final scenes you see a close up of Batman in a chair, but no background to see sky or anything else. I took this to mean he was in an escape pod or ejecting seat. If you watch it a second time you’ll see it, because I went back with the same question, and when I saw no sky or background, I went, “ah ha!”. A tsunami would not have occurred for a neutron bomb at a high enough elevation. Tsunami’s are caused by underwater activity. Large waves? sure, but no tsunami.
6. I’m sure thousands died, and mostly the wealthy, in the raids by the mobs. Bruce was just one of many, so no one asked questions.
7. Possibly an issue, but remember he hasn’t been seen or heard from in 8 years. Also, he kept a low profile anyway – he’s not like Bill Gates or Steve Jobs who would be recognized anywhere because they’re all over the news. Besides that, he’s in another country and can risk the small possibility of being recognized to right the wrong he did to Alfred. Also, the Alfred-is-old-and-heartbroken-and-crazy argument might fly if: 1. Bruce hadn’t fixed the auto pilot & not told anyone, 2. the pearls had not gone missing, 3. he hadn’t had the bat signal fixed for Gordon. 4. he wasn’t BATMAN! (sorry, had to add that).
8. Stupid move in hindsight, but it’s not reasonable to suspect that they laced the entire underground catacombs with invisible explosives either.
9. He has his splint, and it’s under his main cloths so Bane likely missed it because it looked like a simple brace. Also, serious back injuries can heal completely in 6 months, so will the argument that “HE’S BATMAN!” work for 5 months? ;)
10. Blake has the same distaste for justice-infringing bureaucracy as Wayne, plus he proved himself in the fights, so he felt it was better to continue the Batman legacy than to let it die off (it’s also possible that he never knew Blake quit the police force). He may not have the same training as Wayne, but as this movie proved, you always have to keep learning (Bruce had to learn how to use fear to his advantage). My thoughts are that it was more responsible to keep Batman alive than not. Lastly, lets assume you’re right and Blake goes crazy with power. If you know your Batman history, this means Bruce must come back to defeat Batman ;)
i would agree with about three of these, the last few are completely ridiculous, why dont you focus on proper things like why was the bat parked on top of that building when after he saved catwoman he flew it back to the batcave and how did he get his car back to drive it to the wayne enterprises board meeting when catwoman had stolen it a few nights previous, if youre going to pick up on something at least be able to back it up, not make wild accusations, and therees another 30 mins of film that are going to potentially be released with it on DVD which goes into a lot more detail about Bane and Ra’s Al Gul training him
Ok….
1. Bane didn’t act alone. He had behind him a vast and complex organization. The League of the Shadows.
2. Probably he came back to Gotham with The Bat or ask a favor to a friend. (A powerful friend)
3. The only way to get the tunnel open was bombing the tunnel through the Batpod’s cannons. Batman didnt gave Blake the Batpod.
4. Ras Al’gul know that Wayne is Batman. Probably he told Talia about Wayne or Talia found papers or something written by Ras in which he revels Batman identity. Also, he could have appeared in Talia dreams, because all of us know that Ras is inmortal.
5. Mmmmm … Clark Kent save Batman. (lol)
6. The explanation was given in the movie. Bruce Wayne died in the days of the reign of terror of Bane. He died as a result of the riot. (The majority of wealthy people was killed).
7. In Nolan’s movies, Wayne has a LOW PROFILE. Even he had been living like a hermit for 8 years. He’s not a playboy or something like that.
8. The order was given when Gordon was anguished. At that time, Gordon was unaware of Bane’s plans.
9. Batman had 5 or 6 months to recover from injuries.
10. Blake is extremely righteous and honest. Although he feels disappointed, he will NEVER seek revenge against police or the government. He’s not trained like Wayne? Ok, but Nolan didn’t state that Blake will emerge as the new Batman the next night. Probably it will take months before Blake rides as the New Batman in Gotham streets.
:)
1)It is simple Talia knew because she was in control of Wayne Enterprises.
2)South Korean smugglers anyone?
3)I agree with that one but it really didn’t matter to me in the middle of all the things that were happening.
4)Talia died just to finish her father’s insane plan to destroy Gotham I think she is trustworthy enough for her father to tell her who Batman is
5)agree on this one too.
6)there was a riot and rich people got killed and Bruce Wayne was rich…
7)If I saw any billionaire other than Mark Zuckerberg(and even him I know because of The Social Network) I wouldn’t recognize him especially if he is dead and then I would think that he is some kind of a look-alike
8)I agree but it doesn’t really matter.
9)agreed but in the pit he had a couple of month to get well and his cellmate was a doctor.
10)Yes that’s true
ur a complete idiot!!! bane and talia learnt it frm Ras al ghul before he died and that tunnel was to free the policemans who were underground it was not a way out. no one recognized them at the cofee bcoz it was not gotham ( How small burglars and billionairs do u know outside ur country huh??
Out of this list, the question of “how did Bane find Applied Sciences” seems to be the only decent one. But largely unimportant. It is not addressed by the film, but there are a bunch of suitable ways in which this could have been accomplished. The easiest is that Talia used her Miranda alter ego and business dealings with Wayne Enterprises. Even given that Applied Sciences was off the books at this point, it used to exist. If someone already knows that Bruce Wayne is Batman, tracing the prototypes may have been a complicated process, but then they all had 8 years to look.
Next: How did Bane and Talia know Bruce Wayne was Batman? Presumably, the same way that Rha’s Al Ghul knew. Nevermind that some of the League of Shadows forces they were using could have conceivably been survivors of Batman Begins. But Talia and Bane would no doubt have had some knowledge of Bruce Wayne’s training (and subsequent rebellion). They know the methods of the League of Shadows and its easy enough to see in Batman’s tactics. So from their perspective: Bruce Wayne is trained by LoS and rebels; returns to Gotham when Gotham is also suddenly protected by Batman who uses their methods; Batman catches onto and fights the League of Shadows, killing Ra’s Al Ghul. Its not that great of a logical leap.
How did Batman return to Gotham? The same way he traveled to Asia at the beginning of Batman Begins. We don’t know, but we do know that Bruce has experience traveling the world with little to no resources. Once back in America, getting into Gotham isn’t impossible, the special forces guys manage it when they attempt to help Gordon’s resistance.
Bruce Wayne’s regeneration is something of a suspension of disbelief, naturally, hampered in part by the expectation that Bane broke Batman’s back. While that’s the comic book version, that’s not necessarily the movie version. The back injury was probably not as severe (though enough to require some months of downtime). As to his knee, there’s the Magic Brace (which may have some corrective function in addition to helping him walk). Bruce Wayne wouldn’t be the first person to bounce back after horrible injuries, possibly living in constant pain (see the life of Bruce Lee).
Other questions do not seem to be troubling enough to be worth addressing, but I’ll go about it. Sure Gotham PD has a terrible plan. But it was more of a distraction to begin with. And they’re not a professional army, they’re a police force. The real fight is Batman vs Bane, so that Batman can stop the bomb. After that, the real army can step in and mop up the League of Shadows.
Blake was dissatisfied with Gordon’s betrayal, but does not have a vendetta against the police and the army. He simply thinks, like Batman, that he could do better working outside of the law. Blake doesn’t have the skills of Batman, but maybe Bruce thinks that being Batman is first about who the person is. After that, Blake has some training (proving himself capable throughout the movie), and conceivably Bruce expects him to work out what he needs for himself. Additionally, we don’t know what sort of training or advice Bruce might have left in the Bat computer’s files.
I’m curious as to how many billionaires and industrialists everybody can name, much less recognize on the street (or cafe in a foreign country). Bruce Wayne might seem a big deal in Gotham, but we’re always encountering him among business men in Gotham. Outside of Gotham? Some people might recognize him (particularly if they’re focused on Gotham in the way Ra’s Al Ghul is). But then again, are people really going to be looking for a dead man?
Also, considering that rich people were executed (or exiled :D) right and left in Gotham during Bane’s Occupation, its not really that off the wall to suggest that Bruce Wayne died too, especially when the last public, confirmed sighting of Bruce Wayne would have been when Selina Kyle came to escort him (and Lucius Fox) directly to Bane. Given that, I’m sure its simple for Fox to say, “Yeah Bane totally killed Bruce.”
Batman survived because he set the autopilot to fly out over the ocean without him. The best theory is that he ejected when the Bat blew up the building before going over the bridge and out to sea. Either that last shot of Batman was out of sequence (something Christopher Nolan has done before), or the entire cockpit of the Bat ejects (like the helicopter in Goldeneye).
Batman didn’t sent Blake to the bridge. He said the tunnel or the bridge. Blake apparently chose the bridge. Its a terrible lapse of judgement, but then I don’t expect movie characters to always act perfectly and make good decisions. Blake is extremely idealistic, and maybe thought that the army people would take pity.
Neutron bombs don’t produce radiation, so it wouldn’t irradiate Gotham’s citizens with fallout. The tsunami is pretty much the only plot hole in this entire article, but at this point the conflict is over, the movie is over, maybe it happened five seconds after the shot ended. Its not important.
Batman (Blake) vs Batman (Wayne)
1) Talia told him
2) Bruce is highly trained in stealth and infiltration techniques. Besides which, under Gotham there is a network of caves that only he knows about that was used during the Civil War to smuggle people in and out of the city, and just happens to lead directly to his house via an elevator. Think he might have used that? How did he get back to America? Well… he managed to get to Bhutan (yes, Bhutan!) in Batman Begins without any money, too. In both cases I assume it was a combination of stowing away and hitchhiking.
3) Fair question.
4) Talia knew because the League Of Shadows knew. Simple. There doesn’t need to be an explanation in the script because it’s obvious.
5) That confused me, too. The one shot that shouldn’t have been in the film was the shot of Batman in the Bat just before the bomb detonated. Without that shot we could have been left to assume that he managed to eject in plenty of time. But with it, it doesn’t make sense.
6) A lot of people died in the three months that Bane and his army were in charge of Gotham. Most of them the rich and powerful sort. Not exactly difficult to explain the death of the most famous rich and powerful person in the city.
7) Another fair point. Maybe because everyone thinks Bruce Wayne is dead, so just assume that they’re seeing someone who just looks like that famous dead rich guy.
8) Gordon thinks an army is hiding in the sewers that threatens Gotham City. And he’s right. In that situation, you send in whoever you’ve got. This is something else that happens in Batman Begins and no one bats an eyelid… remember when the ENTIRE police force were in The Narrows after the Arkham breakout?
9) Not sure about the knee (other than the thing he wears on his leg that appears to heal it), but for the back… Bruce Lee managed to come back from that in REAL LIFE. It took him longer (though not by much) than Bruce Wayne, but it’s kinda the point of Batman that whatever someone can do, he can do better. Even in the more grounded world of Nolan’s series. It was never actually stated he had a broken back, by the way… it could have just been a case that his spine had been displaced and needed to be pushed back into place. It happens.
10) Nope.
These questions are either directly or indirectly answered in the film. This is the problem with letting anyone write articles.
Question 3: Batman himself explains this to Blake. “in case I fail” So that’s it. Should Batman fail in opening up the tunnels Blake would still have an alternative to saving the kids.
Just to add to suggestions for points 6 and 7, if you notice in the ending, there is no news broadcast about Bruce Wayne’s death. Who is to say he’s dead apart from those close to Wayne and the Wayne Enterprises board? And I’m sure they would keep things secretive if required. Also Wayne Manor is a memorial for Bruce’s parents so the children could be none the wiser and think he’s just moved on.
As for the rest, maybe instead of viewing these ‘plot holes’ of bad film making Nolan intended to promote discussion like we are having here. Calm your beans!
Note to self: never read any of Simon Gallagher’s articles again.
The fact that something bothers you does not make something a plot hole. Okay so we don’t see Bane doing the detective work to find Applied Sciences. We also don’t see anyone in the movie go to the bathroom, but we’re given enough information to know that it’s going on off-screen (the fact that they are humans). We know that Bane and Talia have the training and resources of the League of Shadows, who are experts at infiltrating organisations to bring them down, so it is not difficult to imagine that they spent the 8 years between TDK and TDKR laying the groundwork for the events of the movie.
I didn’t even read past the first question because I just read through Simon’s “10 Easy Ways To Fix Its Biggest Flaws” article on the same film, and this one looks like more of the same poorly reasoned justifications for why his personal dislikes constitute mistakes.
Now, that’s not really a note to self is it.
And a narrative gap that REQUIRES justification in the grander context of the film is NOT the same as wanting to see Batman have a tinkle. It just isnt.
“It just isn’t! *stamps feet*”
Yeah, that’s pretty much both this article and the “biggest flaws” article.
Typical troll, changing the actual sentiment of a comment to your own ends. Well done.
Typical bad internet writer. Accuse all detractors of trolling.
Nope, my friend. Just you.
Because I’m the only one calling you out for the hack you are, I imagine.
Ha. You’re great. This guy doesn’t agree with me, must be a hack.
I can understand the logic behind his limp being healed rather quickly. The same thing happens in Sherlock, the TV series, in which Martin Freeman’s Dr. Watson begins the show suffering from post-traumatic stress and has a limp, yet the return to ‘action’ when he begins to help Sherlock quickly relieves his psychological issues and he is right back to running and jumping with the best of them. It is more than likely Bruce Wayne’s knee problem stemmed from psychological issues, he has been cooped up in his house for 8 years after all, so the same could happen to him, when he returns to Batman, his psychological needs are met and he can once again face the world.
Still, his back was a rather quick heal and must just be quite lucky. I’ve heard it’s not impossible for that healing to occur within 5 months, yes it’s very painful, but we don’t know the true extent of the break.
Also a final point, I think the last shot we see of Batman in The Bat is actually when he presses the button to seemingly blow up the side of a building, presumably to make room for him to pilot the bomb past it, whereas upon return viewings the smoke and explosion that it creates could well have facilitated his exit point above Gotham City. I may be wrong, maybe we do see him again in The Bat after that shot, but I’m pretty sure the 2nd time I saw it that was the final time.
Otherwise, I can definitely see the logic behind each of these flaws haha, though I guess there’s a chance it could have just been seconds later that Bruce was mobbed by paparazzi at the cafe! haha
Some good points, but despite how grounded this version of Batman was, it was still a movie about a man who dresses up like a bat and fights crime with tech that hasn’t been invented yet, so a healthy dose of Suspension of Disbelief is a definite prerequisite.
Below are some off the top of my head replies to your 10 questions.
1. Bane knew that Bruce was Batman, so it wouldn’t have taken a huge jump in logic to know that he was using Wayne Enterprises to build his equipment. Any secret factory would likely be hidden in the bowels of the building, so it was just a matter of finding the correct basement. And being the League of Shadows, I’m sure they had more than a few ways of breaking into Wayne Foundation
2. With his vast resources, Bruce very likely had hidden accounts set up all over the world to assist in his travels. He probably used those funds to charter a plan back to Gotham.
3. Good point. The tunnel would have been the better choice.
4. Pretty much everyone in the League of Shadows knows that Bruce = Batman (why they never revealed it is another issue altogether). So anyone entering in a command level (Talia/Bane) would have access to that knowledge.
5. I asked myself the same question. The bomb has a blast radius of 6 miles, so unless Bruce bailed prior to this, he should have been swept up in the explosion. But in terms of tsunamis, bomb testing is often done at sea with no resulting tsunami.
6. It’s likely that many of Gotham’s elite were killed in the riots. Being who he is, it wouldn’t have been difficult to explain that the body and funeral be private, so no one would be able to verify his death. (having the police Commissioner on your side helps too)
7. Good point. If Steve Jobs suddenly surfaced in Florence, I’m sure there’d be a few heads turning. But maybe Bruce wasn’t well known enough to be known in Europe. I wonder if Ted Turner would be recognized by that many people in an Italian cafe?
8. Great point. Why didn’t they just seal off the exits and smoke them out?
9. Here’s were comic-book suspension of disbelief comes in.
10. I suppose Bruce feels that John’s character is worthy of inheriting the mantle. But like you said, John is pretty lacking in the ninja training.
Here are the answers for all of the questions:
“HE IS BATMAN”
close the case ^^
are you an idiot talia told him. not reading past that since with that being your number one post you have lost all credibility.