If fan expectation and media hype had anything to do with how a film turned out, The Dark Knight Rises would have been the greatest film ever released, matching what will no doubt still be an eye-wateringly successful box-office return with perfect critiques across the board.
Sadly though that isn’t how Hollywood works and The Dark Knight Rises is a far from flawless movie, with some fundamental technical and story-telling problems that blemished what should have been a monumental achievement in film-making and the finest movie borne out of the comic book universe.
Don’t get me wrong, when the film is good, it absolutely soars, and some sequences are incredibly entertaining, executed to perfection and dripping with that dedication to spectacle that we were all expecting. But with all of the built expectation, and the apparent commitment to creating a “fitting end” – in terms of both finality and grandeur – the problems were all the more noticeable and affecting than they might have been in other projects.
Nolan was hamstrung from the outset by the fact that whatever he achieved with The Dark Knight Rises would have to eclipse everything that came before in his trilogy, and that would be a Herculean endeavour even for as celebrated a film-maker as he. The Dark Knight was a precisely tuned example of tight story-telling, mesmerizing character genesis and artful execution, and it is no accident that it is considered a towering achievement.
Because of the decision to present his arc of the Batman story as a triumverate, Nolan’s final film would also be expected to tie up some loose ends, offering at least some finality to this version of the character – as the director himself always seems to have intended.
But The Dark Knight Rises isn’t as great as we might have hoped – yes it is a good cinematic experience, and it has some of the finest set-pieces and sequences of this or any year, but the good points distract a great deal from an awful lot of problems. Whisper it, but The Dark Knight Rises is a comparatively poor film, led by exceptional acting, some stand-out moments and an established fan-base who will savage anyone who suggests that anything might be wrong with it.
Warning: There are HUGE SPOILERS within. Read on only if you accept that fact.
Take a deep breath and click next to reveal the first mistake, and PLEASE do feel free to call me on all or any of the points made – I have spent more time debating this film than any since Inception, which is far from a bad thing…
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86 Comments
I agree with every single point.
i got to number 7 and stopped think you might have forgotten that bane wasnt working for daggett he was working for talia she was part of wayne enterprises and being a member of the los her father probably told her of waynes secret an she did a little bit of digging its not that far fetched it makes sense so how can you agree with every single point?
well then youre as clueless as the guy who wrote this crapfest.
more jen – yes lets have more screen time dedicated to Selina Kyle’s prostitute roommate in the last Chris Nolan Batman movie we’ll ever get which BTW is already running close to 3 HOURS, then again I guess they could have removed that Bane-Batman fight scene halfway through and replaced it with a 15 minute heart to heart where Jen explains why she does all the terrible things she does for money.
no joker reference – Heath Ledger died, toolbag! Nolan’s gone on record saying there’s no reference IN RESPECT of Heath and since Nolan and everyone else who worked on that film were his friends i’m gonna agree with their decision over your desire to fulfill your pathetic fanboy dreams.
scarecrow should have been in MORE of the movie – Scarecrow was lucky to have been featured at all! it was a glorified cameo only given due to his friendship with the director, there was zero reason to bring him back and shouldn’t have been featured at all.
And once again this is the LAST batman movie in this story and theres already a ridiculous amount of supporting characters to deal with and you think it makes sense in any way to sidetrack the story for another throw away henchmen villain??????
im not wasting any more of my time listing all the others, this list is ridiculous BS which i’ve clearly proved but enough’s enough
I think this can all be summarised by; he tried to fit in the end of five of the biggest supervillains in cartoon history in one film.
No nod to the joker thing, 2-face died in a car crash?, Catwoman had no back history and wasn’t even the slightest bit mental – just selfish, Bane sounded like he had a 100W amp in that tiny breathing thingy, the woman was the villian (how surprising was that), the timer on the bomb was nowhere near accurate.
Oh and finally a fission device would not blow up like that – why not use the usual fusion bomb scenario. At least we know them to be capable of levelling cities, rather than a fission device which (according to someone that works with them) ‘jumps’ when they go wrong. However as the device weighs a few hundred tonnes, something like that jumping actually has the same effect as a surface tremor to the surrounding environ.
There was a lot wrong with this film, more than the reasons here, however mostly the problem was, similar to The Lord of The Rings, he was trying to fit in too much and pointlessly rewrote a couple of characters and lost out because of it.
A lot of your flaws can be explained well enough if you listen to the dialogue
1.About Blake’s deduction, this is well-explained. He tells Bruce how he saw in him the look he had taught himself. Add that to the fact that Batman clearly had resources, he put two and two together. Maybe it was just a guess that was confirmed in that dialogue but it’s easier to believe that he could where Gordon could not(refer the dialogue Bruce had with the man in the pit about how the “child” who succeeded was different from “a man from privilege”). He had similar experiences to Bruce and Gordon did not.
2.As for Bane knowing where the hangar was, forgot Talia? She was part of Wayne Enterprises at least 3 years as the story reveals. You think she could not have had reconnaisance done in all that time?
3. I would say Buce’s recovery was far from speedy. He had 5 months and could’ve gotten back to the Batcave and strapped himself up in preparation.
4. Besides that, you really think Alfred expects a master-thief to come in dressed as a maid in a fundraiser where there are plenty of third-party caterers? You can set up a burglar alarm but you can’t cover such abstract possibilities
5.The ending felt fine to me. Bruce as a young man seeking to clean up the city and complete his parents’ work is different from a Bruce who is older, has suffered both physically and mentally as a result of his crime-fighting but sees no point in life without it. I would say it’s good that he hung up the cape for good and left it to a younger man with similar temperament and armed with a combination of both his and Gordon’s experiences. The entire point of the film was an examination of the idea that he can’t and won’t give up being Batman. I feel sad that we live in a world where the possibility of someone deciding to live again and retiring to a relatively happy life is frowned upon.
Anyway. I would say more but I would instead inform yo that a majority of your views(I do agree with Bane’s death though) are largely your personal opinions rather than any real flaw in Nolan’s writing.
My biggest gripe with the film were the countless establishing shots of ‘Gotham’ which were, quite clearly, Manhattan. We even see The Empire State Building and the Freedom Tower at the new World Trade Centre. Kinda ruins the tension. Oh, and lets not forget the EasyJet plane taxiing by when we see Kyle at the airport.
…you sir are quite clearly an idiot. Sorry to be so blunt, but I’m pretty sure that the fictional gotham city is supposed to be the batman universe equivalent of new york. And even if it wasn’t, what’d you expect them to do? build an entire city for a movie?
Dude GOTHAM CITY IS NEW YORK!!! Dumbass… what did you want a three bilion dollar editing crew
I think you guys are missing his point, it’s not that Gotham isn’t suppose to be New York. It’s that each film changed the city, to the point that this is obviously a different city from Chicago.
The streets are too big and empty in this movie, when they should have looked similar to the chaos at the end of Batman Begins.
its so strange reading these comments.
to come out of a film thinking it was bang on perfect in every way possible. then to read top ten things they done wrong or this and that.
the editing, story, pace, action, it was perfect I’m sure of it?
my only theory is, 50% of us went in as children, 50% of us went in as film critics. which in my mind, resulted in an epic fail.
finally! an intelligent thought. I love when someone has a reasonable thought process that helps them make the decision that a “great” movie isn’t so great. Especially when a group of people who worship that “great” movie persecute the one person who didn’t appreciate it as much, instead of learning from his or her opposing views
I went in as a Batman fan expecting a movie about Batman, not a movie about a billionaire who dresses up as batman and otherwise is nothing like him. That’s my biggest gripe with this movie, Batman wasn’t Batman, hell none of the characters were in character. Nolan could might as well have called the movie John Robin Blake (“The psychic wonder”) Rises considering how much of a gary stu he was…
plus I’ve heard some beef with banes death before.
listen, bane was already dead. batman beat him. it was only due to getting stabbed in the side that it was delayed.
i saw cat woman killing him more of a finishing of than anything
Ya, I agree completely. Finishing off for sure.
Excellent, I agree with all your points. I watched it yesterday and the way it was edited, it made me feel like I was watching one of those trailers that gives the whole move away before you see it. There was no finesse in the editing. It was a quick blast of information then quick cut to the next scene where we get another quick blast of information before another quick cut…and linking all these scenes was the same long piece of continues music which had the effect of just blending them all together. Dark Knight Rises gets added to the list of disappointing films released in 2012.
I agree with much of what you said, but your “mistakes” seem to relate to a lack of development. Well, development takes time and I presume that is something Nolan did not have. It would be surprising if a directors cut came out with an extra hour which fulfilled most of these “mistakes”.
The Dark Knight actually had some really bad continuity edits. I’m not talking about the structuring of the story as you are but literally shot matching.
Bruce Wayne takes over two months to recover from his first fight. If you look at the tv it says day 80 or something Of the siege
There was no Joker reference in honor of Ledger’s portrayal of the character. Because he himself couldn’t be there, Nolan didn’t want to include the villain in the movie.
The scene was to be where the prisoners are released, and when Joker hears the locks disengaging, he gets up and goes to his door, trying to open it with his trademark grin and scarred face. The door doesn’t open. Joker frowns (again, trademark), and sits back down on his bed laughing.
No, no, no, Chris, the omitted joker scene you are referring to ( http://storyboardcomics.blogspot.co.uk/2012/07/the-missing-scene-from-dark-knight-rises.html ) is just a hypothetical storyboard put together by a freelance artist with a storyboard based comic blog – how he would have included a joker reference in the the film had he been involved.
Everything you said was a mistake, just made the movie even better. Your just a mardy critic who is hard to please. It was the best film ever and alot of people think so. So stop wasting your life being a boring old sod and enjoy the film.
Jordan, if you ever graduated from elementary school it would be a miracle! You are less literate than a half witted earth worm. An intellect rivaled only by broken garden tools.
Yes. Let’s all be stupid little sheep like you and not question obvious plot holes. Let us just believe whatever we see without any ounce of critical thought.
Even a child just starting preschool would be able to make more sense than you on his or her first day. So go back to playing with your nice colored bricks and stop pretending to be a normal person! Maybe one day you might grow a few more brain cells and you could be a cabbage.
The same people that are complaining about Nolan showing Bruce alive and well at the end are the very same people who would be up in arms screaming, “You can’t kill Batman! Nolan is a hack!”
If given a large bag of money, these are the people that would complain about how heavy it is. There will always be SOMETHING to complain about. Nolan had 0% chance of pleasing everyone.
Actually, I wrote an article saying Batman MUST Die in the Dark Knight Rises. So not all the same people.
Yeah, 0% chance of pleasing everyone. But, He still go their money!
i think it’s a flaw that batman managed to flee “The Bat” and make it out of the 6 mile radius of the giant bomb before it exploded…
During the fight between Bane and Batman, Bane tells him that darkness doesn’t scare him at all. And that he saw sunlight for the first time as a full grown adult. In-spite of this, Batman thinks (scene/dialogue shown repeatedly) that the “child” who climbed out of the pit is Bane !
Bruce said to Selina that he had a way to get out of the city.
Can someone explain what ‘BAT’ Fox was inspecting at the end of the movie? Batman’s clearly blew up, and if it was another that had been stored in Applied Sciences why didn’t Bane steal it?
Ok. So, I have to agree with most of your comments becasue I was definitely thinking the same thing. I don’t like how they didn’t explain how Bane or Catwoman came into existance. Who the hell was Selina’s roommate? She kind of reminded me of Holly Quinn. They totally gave away Robin way before the end. Bane died the worst death ever. Oh, and there should have been a better way of showing Bane breaking batman’s back. I mean come on..that is a very key element. I was really upset about the romance between Talia and Selina with Bruce. I thought they should have centered it more around Selina and Bruce or atleast did a better job of showing their chemistry. Also, I don’t like how they made Catwoman more heroic than she should be or the fact that the Scarecrow had pretty much NO Role in the movie. All in all, it was a pretty good movie though.
Ok. So, I have to agree with most of your comments becasue I was definitely thinking the same thing. I don’t like how they didn’t explain how Bane or Catwoman came into existance. Who the hell was Selina’s roommate? She kind of reminded me of Holly Quinn. They totally gave away Robin way before the end. Bane died the worst death ever. Not to mention they didn’t really emphasize Bane breaking batman’s back. I mean come on, that was a huge part of the comics. I was really upset about the romance between Talia and Selina with Bruce. I think they should have emphasized more on Selina and Bruce and really shown their Chemisty. However, the movie was pretty good and I would pay to see it if I had to relive the whole experience.
Ok. So, I have to agree with most of your comments becasue I was definitely thinking the same thing. I don’t like how they didn’t explain how Bane or Catwoman came into existance. Who the hell was Selina’s roommate? She kind of reminded me of Harley Quinn. They totally gave away Robin way before the end. Bane died the worst death ever. Not to mention they didn’t really emphasize Bane breaking batman’s back. I mean come on, that was a huge part of the comics. I was really upset about the romance between Talia and Selina with Bruce. I think they should have emphasized more on Selina and Bruce and really shown their chemisty. However, the movie was pretty good and I would pay to see it if I had to relive the whole experience.
The only thing you missed was the legend that Bane was born in the pit and that was the reason he was able to escape. Saying in the end that it was Taila was Nolan trying to be crafty, but ultimately just didn’t fit. The doctor and the old prisoner both would’ve seen the other prisoners beating him and then the doctor actually puts his mask on! It was a huge oversight to say the legend was about Bane at all.
Maybe the prisoner and doctor allowed Bruce to believe the child that escaped was Bane, to motivate him to rebuild himself and go back to Gotham determined to beat Bane. The only person ever to escape is the one guy you need to fight and beat to save your beloved city, so you must do the same as him and climb the wall to escape. In a sense, it’s the false hope that Bane talked about. They led him on with a lie to spur him on.
Had they told him that Bane was just a random guy who got injured in a fight protecting a little girl, and that the only person to ever escape the pit was that little girl who was coincidentally Ra’s Al Ghul’s daughter, i don’t think he’d have had the same determination to escape, as he didn’t even know who Talia was at this point. He didn’t know Miranda was in fact Talia who was finishing off her dead father’s plan to destroy Gotham.
And they didn’t show (didn’t even say) how he got out of the pit. When they say that Talia was the child, and Bane was the protector, they don’t say how the hell Bane got out of there!
First article i’ve read that actually understands this film – it was dissappointing in so many ways and massively inferior to the Dark Knight. I agree with all your points, would also add that the prison was completely unconvincing – it’s meant to be hell on earth but it was pretty much a health spa with a climbing wall. There was also no character development – Bane’s motives relied entirely on the plot of Batman Begins, we never understood him in the same way as we did the Joker. Such a shame, i looked forward to this film for so long
Overwhelming disagreement from me on every point except Juno Temple, this website seems intent to storm against the tide of praise for TDKR, like the kid at school who derides anything popular just for the hell of it.
Bathman, how do you explain the other comments above in that case? Or the negative reviews elsewhere? Just because something is loved by some people, doesn’t mean it has to be loved by all people.
I agree to most of the things you explained here. I didn’t feel satisfied coming out of the movie hall where everyone of my friends were raving about the movie. Yes I loved the movie and was thinking my over expectations is what led to not being able to enjoy it fully but now that I’ve read this article I know I wasn’t wrong. Christopher Nolan is still my favorite director, I just wish he would have paid more attention to these details.
Mr.Reese knew about applied sciences. He did want $10 million a year for the rest of his life. Maybe he sold the information to John Dagget at some point, but yes this is a plot hole.
A good article and i agree alot of points, my main one being bane, he was portrayed as a huge character and was built up quite well but all of a sudden hes just thrown off stage so quickly, i wanted (similar to you) some kind of hand to hand fight with bane not killed like the joker in the dark knight, but overall i was pleased with the film as it was generally a great film for me and it is Nolans adaption so its his choice to make it his way so there will always be disagreements on his choices.
I agree with every single point on this article, literally I came out the screen and said all of these straight away, its like you read my frigging mind dude!!
TDKR ony gets 3 outta 5 in my opinion, felt sloppy, rushed, bitty!
I think the sheer amount of feedback given here shows how successful the film truly is. I agree with many points, but also have to admit that Dark Knight Rises is the best film of 2012 in my opinion even after the twenty mistakes. Some could be Nolan letting our imaginations run wild, like maybe Bruce Maybe somehow contacted Alfred and that is how he got back to Gotham and then he snuck in. Just random food for thought, but I have to admit that even though I will see the next Batman movie whenever another one does come out, I won’t be as excited for it as I was for the past three Batman movies because it definitely won’t be the same without Nolan and most likely Christian Bale.
I really enjoyed the film but was also pleased to read your dissection of the plot and certain elements, as many of these didn’t sit well with me either…
What about the stab wound inflicted by Talia? Are we just meant to believe it didn’t actually cause any damage and Batman just continued on with his mission to save Gotham?
Re the pit prison, did anyone else completely miss how Bane transported Batman there in the first place? And why did the prisoners so ready to accept Bruce and want him to make his way out?
Also, whatever happened to Two Face?
Two-face died when batman speared him off the side of a building at the end of The Dark Knight.
I agree with this article almost entirely, good piece that confirmed to me that I wasn’t being totally unrealistic with my expectations for ‘The Dark Knight Rises’ and my subsequent dissappointment. I realise that this may sound stupid to most, but an albeit minor annoyance I had on top of the one’s mentioned in the article, was the fact that such a large proportion of the film was set during the day. I realise there were reasons for this, but it seemed not to fit with the previous two films in the franchise, and the general character of batman (and as pointed out in the film; Bane).
Excellent points, especially No. 14, which was the biggest shortcoming of the movie. And for a movie which had so many flaws, that is saying a lot. The whole problem of overshadowing the issues threatening Gotham on a deeper level with the gimmicky, nuclear countdown was just weak, lazy storytelling, highly unexpected from the Nolan brothers. Ironically this problem is perfectly symbolized by Bruce and Selina’s exchange when he recruits her for his purpose post Gotham’s takeover.
Selina: Maybe I prefer Gotham this way.
Bruce: Whether you like it or not, there would be no Gotham left soon.. (or something to that effect)
So the possibility of a fascinatingly complex dilemma was presented with Selina’s line, but swept aside with Bruce’s cop out of a reply.
I think a major issue is the plot. The Dark Knight had the joker. The Dark Knight Rises had Bane…
There’s all this build up about a man whose subordinates willingly die for him, who can set up this whole plane attack scenario, who can beat the batman to a pulp with his bare hands…
But when the Batman finally wins against him, Bane is stripped of everything that made him a scary, disturbing madman. He turns out to be nothing more than Talia’s goon. He is not a mastermind, just an executant. He is not the cruel prison kid, he is the nice prisoner with a sob story. And immediately after that he’s shot dead by catwoman, a fitting end for a villain who we don’t want to care about anymore.
So, with all that in mind, compare Bane to the Joker. The difference is not just in the acting: it’s in the scenario. Bane was never given a chance to be a good villain.
Other mistakes to add to the list:
Blakes Conditional Morality- Blake berates Gordon for lying to the people about Harvey’s death (i.e giving false hope to people, end doesn’t justify the means etc etc) only to hypocritically lie to the orphans about getting on the bus, saying that they will consequently be protected by a nuclear blast! And it takes the priest (of all people!!) to try fruitlessly to talk some sense into him. And this is the guy batman trusts to take over his legacy. History repeats itself it seems.
The Coincidental City – Batman is about to be killed by Bane, and Selina burst in at the exact (the exact!) moment and kills Bane. Lucky. I expect this rubbish from Poseidon and 2012, not a Nolan Film. Also, a tank is about to shoot army of police officers, and the bat swoops in at perfect moment to save the day. Cheap thrills. Refer back to TDK, batman saves himself from Joker by firing blades from his wrist guard. Fine. Not asking for much just no coincidences.
Overall, a very poor film.
Some good points. I thought the bits in the pit, despite being a bit silly, were acceptable as part of a fantasy film. The worst part for me was the whole bomb bit. A device which will blow up because it can’t stay stable has a countdown timer accurate to the second, even though minutes before it was being knocked around in a truck and hitting walls when Batman is towing it away. Then this nuclear bomb with a 6 mile blast radius is rendered harmless by having it blow up over water instead of in the city. The whole thing screamed generic blockbuster, and ruined a lot of the atmosphere created over the last two and a half films for me.
I can’t agree with most of these, although Blake knowing about Wayne being Batman was just silly.
Atom bomb explosion = tidal wave and contamination of water.
Oh c’mon. What the heck you stupid perfectionist.
This article should be called “How to make Batman more boring and pedantic”. These parts were left out/skipped because they are boring and have NOTHING TO DO with making an interesting movie.
And the Blake complaint was a nod to Tim Drake. It only makes sense that if they start with inside information, someone may figure out you’re the batman.
My main problem with the movie was how it contradicted its predecessors. The main point of The Dark Knight was that there was no such thing as a “White Knight”; that even those purest of souls can be evil. This is what The Joker wants to point out the whole movie. Harvey Dent’s eventual transformation pointed out that The Joker was right all along. There is no such thing as a flawless hero. And yet, John Blake is the epitome of heroism. He is the White Knight with great intentions and absolutely no flaws, not even those created by his lack of experience. If anything, he was made to be the smartest guy in this whole movie. The movie fails by making Blake a real version of “Harvey Dent the White Knight” completely contradicting everything established by the last film.
Beyond that, there was a more important inconsistency. Throughout both Batman Begins and The Dark Knight, Bruce makes it clear: Gotham needs Batman. He couldn’t give up the cowl no matter what, because he felt being Batman was his responsibility. The death of his parents left him with a hole in his life that could only be filled by the duty of fighting crime and protecting the city to make sure nothing like that would happen again. And he just gave up the cowl for 8 years? Fair enough, the Dent Act did dismantle most of organized crime, but that doesn’t mean there wouldn’t be another Joe Chill who would murder someone in cold blood for his wallet. Batman would always be needed, because crime would never end. And yet, even after the Bane fiasco, Batman decided to leave the country and ignore his calling? This isn’t the Bruce Wayne that was established in the other films. Nolan did something that no one has ever done before; he effectively “cured” Bruce Wayne. That was, in my opinion, his biggest mistake of all.
Harvey Dent was perfect. He was corrupted by the Joker and the need for revenge for his wife’s death.
i have said #20 to literally every single person i’ve talked to about the movie
I am actually OK with some of the points raised, these didn’t bother me. Bruce getting back to Gotham seemed no big issue, sneaking one man in should not have been a great challenge, they seemed more focused on stopping people leave. Likewise Applied Sciences, Fox didn’t build every item there himself, so its not so hard to imagine some technician somewhere might have leaked something.
What did bother me, which nobody seems to have raised is the loss of the Wayne fortune. Armed gang break into the stock exchange and run a programme to steal / lose Bruce of billions, and Fox or Alfred mumble ‘oh maybe we could try and claim it was fraud’. Of course they could! There was an armed gang in the stock exchange! Surely that is an easy one for Bruce and his lawyers to say he never made any of the transactions. That was a huge huge hole for me that does not seem much picked up. Also in the modern age, do people really need to break into the stock exchange to manually plug in some programme like that? Not heard of the internet? Or could not one discreet guy have plugged it in rather than needing a small army?
Really good article, some great points. I agree with nearly all of them, particularly those regarding Selina, Talia, The Joker, and the various ending scenes.
One final small thing I noticed is that during the first Batman v Bane fight scene Bane claims to have been ‘born in the dark’, surely a reference to the pit-prison where Talia was in fact born. It seems like a mistake that Bane would suggest he was born in the pit, unless of course he knew that Batman assumed this and was therefore just playing along.
Personally I’d still give the film an 8/10, with ‘The Dark Knight’ obviously getting a 10/10 though.
If you guys are so smart enough, why don’t you make the movie! Like as if I’ve got plenty of time to do it! There’s that word ‘dateline’ means anything to you?
I agree with all the points made, except for the statement that The Dark Knight Rises is still a great movie. The beginning was dreadful, and throughout the movie I kept expecting the plot to get better, but the moment never came.
Honestly TDKR nearly ruined the whole trilogy as a whole, since the first two films were amazing, unlike the final installment.
PS: How the hell did Batman get miles away from Gotham, and still manage to be out of the 6 mile radius of the bomb by jumping out of the “Bat” (aka Batwing), all within a minute?
With regards to point 11 , Batman’s return to Gotham, probably it was the escape route from Gotham Batman was referring to the cat burglar. When he manages to get into Gotham via this ‘secret’ route , it would have been veryplausible to rescue the people through this route.
Dateline? You mean deadline? If a film feels half arsed like this did to me, the deadline was probably unrealistic then !
Before anyone curses me for my comment, everyone has their own opinion, and it must be respected!
Well, i agree with some points, like numbers 1,4,7,13,14 and 20 (especially because i think cutting at Alfred´s smile would be awesome…the best finale). The movie, in my opinion, is great, near perfect, but it has those problems addressed, so it´s valid to point them out.
But, there were some arguments that were not right, or should i say…misplaced! Like The Joker reference, like others quoted, Nolan said that there would not be any in respect of Ledger…so you should not pointed that out! Bane´s death…i don´t know if i got your point, but i think you wanted him to have a better ending, right? in this part i´m with you, but otherwise, Selina did what she did because there was no other way at the time! The love´s relationships were ok…i don´t really think some romantic,cheese scenes would be so nice! And finale, Bruce Wayne´s fix? Sorry, but we can´t assume he overcame it, he just “passed the torch” to Blake´s to try the live another life, how can you assume it´s forever? Of course it´s a trilogy and it was supposed the end with a proper closure, but can´t we imagine that maybe, later on, he will figure out he can´t live like that? But again, Nolan´s approach of the character was a more realistic one, not like in the comics…he was seriously debiliated by his actions from over the years and he gave everything, in his concept, for the city (remember his conversation with Selina about giving Gotahm everything), his idea of batman, symbol, worked…so i thought it was totally fine his ending!
Sorry for the grammar mistakes in the post, but i was in a hurry and couldn´t review properly!
This was a pretty darn good list. The frustrating thing is, even though this list of 20 lists some very credible problems with the film, you could list many more without thinking to hard.
I firmly believe that Nolan “mailed it in” for the finale, and just went with the standard fare of punch, kick, explode and win in the end mystique that keeps fanboys raving and cash flowing in to pockets.
deeply disappointed to this closure of a very good series, this third movie was the worst of the three, and fell far, far short of where it needed to be.
About number 16.. Bane started getting weaker because Batman started hitting him in the mask he’s wearing. At some point in the movie he said that it would hurt if he took it off.
This article made me very sad, because most of these were valid points, and some I hadn’t even thought about, making the film an even larger disappointment than I had previously decided. After I saw the movie, I knew I didn’t like the idea of a nuke or the uprising of the lower class. Now I don’t like hardly anything about the plot. The acting, action, and music were the best part. It’s a shame the writing was inferior. *sigh* never thought I’d say that about a Nolan script :(
In my opinion, the biggest mistake was not explaining how Bruce Wayne got back to Gotham after escaping the prison. So here is a question to ponder : how cool would it have been to see Superman make a cameo and help Bruce get back to the city undetected? It continues the story without a big hole, creates hype for Man Of Steel next year, and plants the seed for a Justice League movie. But I have to ask, would Superman having a cameo in Dark Knight Rises have made the movie better or ruined it?
It’s pity that ordinary batman fans can not only identify the potholes, but also ways in which they could have been rectified. In all honesty, Nolan, normally a great director and story teller, seems amateur when comparing him to the people writing these comments.
I agree with all your points, all were raised straight after leaving the cinema, very disappointing film and I am very shocked by Nolan as he was getting better starting from memento through to inception. I don’t believe its due to media hype or expectation, it was just a bad film.
A point not mentioned:
How did Alfred know so much about Bane’s history?
The fire-batsign on the bridge was completely unnecessary.
Giving Batman an armoured plane made the whole ‘rising’ part unchallenging.
I couldn’t stand another nuclear bomb plot and this kind of NY invasion story has been done plenty of times for the last couple of years (transformer, avengers, spiderman) – very lazy script writing.
The chemistry behind wayne/selina/talia was shockingly bad. There’s no point me going through all these points as it’s all been covered already. 5/10 for me.
This film shouldn’t have been made in the first place, WB may have pressured Nolan to hit sales as it seems he normally is a great story teller. A real shame…
One of my gripes about the movie was the ending. In this review he states that Nolan didn’t kill Batman, but if you nitpick it, Alfred said he always IMAGINED Bruce being at that cafe, and so you have to think did he really see him, or did he imagine it all? Also, you saw no sign of Batman leaving The Bat at the end, plus why would Bruce leave Robin the coordinates to the Batcave if he didn’t know he was either leaving or dying? So many little thing like that, plus the bomb had a six-mile radius they said in the movie, Gotham looked WAY bigger than six miles. A couple more things, I hate how he made no mention of Arkham Asylum in any of these movies. He included Blackgate, but no Arkham. Is that not the base of Batman? And plus all the other countless villains of Batman disappeared too! Mr. Freeze, Poison Ivy, etc. Makes it feel like this is Batman saves NYC more than Gotham, because part of Gotham also was it’s funky buildings and the whole design of it. And there was no mention of Robin, other than the guys name. Robin was his sidekick, not a cop who picks up where Batman left off, either by death or disappearance.
In conclusion- I’m pissed at Nolan for thinking he could re-write just about every aspect of Batman- the history, Robin, the Batcave, Gotham, and leaving out the one thing that made Gotham a crime city; Arkham. So once again, this feels more like Manhattan + Batman. I’m just OCD about that kind of stuff I guess, but growing up with Batman, this just makes me upset to see it all go away like that. Plus if Bruce did die, that ruins it. And if he just left and was a dick for making everyone think he died, that ruins it. So what’s left? Robin or Nightwing trilogy? Sad to see you go, Batman. On camera, and in my heart.
9. There’s No Joker Reference – Agreed.
I don’t think we should have seen or even heard The Joker, in any context without a doubt. But, at least a subtle nod would have made me happy.
Maybe as the loons were freed we saw one wearing the infamous purple jacket. Possibly a humorous exchange between two nuts.
“Nice jacket, where’d ya get it?”
“I was cold so Mr. Smiles gave it to me.”
Or something along those lines, you get the point. It would leave us with the sense that The Joker still has his psychotic whimsical about him and he’s escaped off into the abyss somewhere.
I actually was upset that The Joker didn’t die in The Dark Knight. I absolutely thought he needed to, that would have been the proper closure.
In any case, try and put yourself in the crews position. They didn’t want to do anything to sully The Joker I’m sure. They must have discussed and ultimately decided it was best just to leave it alone than risk it.
I do agree with pretty much every single point. I did however rather like the “Robin” revelation at the end of the movie but yet again agree with the fact that at the time, it was a nice touch but in then it sort of lost it’s magic and just became another massive plot hole with no closure. One thing that doesn’t seem to bother anyone else…but really really annoyed me was the shots of Gotham city was so obviously New York City. In one shot I could see Central Park and another, the Empire State Building. For me this sort of lost the magic and lost the fantasy of Gotham City. Whereas in the Dark Knight, there were some fabulous shots of Gotham City at night, with the ferries crossing and it seemed really authentic. But for TDKR that was sort of ruined for me.
And another thing…..I totally agree with the fact that there was no Joker references. There should have been. For me, The Joker owned the Dark Knight and was the core of the movie and to not have any reference at all is very much a let down.
I also have to add that I was really really impressed with this, not that I am any sort of movie expert of any kind but for me, this trilogy was just freaking amazing and I love hearing peoples thoughts and discussions on it.
I liked your comments, and you’re right on most of them. The problem is that your criticism is all too technical and, to be fair, very alienated from the really core points of the plot. Just to mention one example: how BW was able to return to Gotham after escaping the pit is utterly insignificant in compassion to the fact that he escaped from the pit by itself. Probably the most important symbolic archetype that we get from Nolan’s version of the Batman legend is the analogy between Bruce Wayne as a child falling down accidentally into the well, and his traumatic experience with the bats, and how this incident unleashed the chain of events that ended up with BW’s parents being killed, and the guilt and anger that BW developed as he grew up as an orphan. If you analyze it carefully, you will see how important was for the whole trilogy to find an appropriate analogy to that childhood nightmare in this final movie, and Nolan found the perfect one by means of the prison pit, and the whole story around it was esthetically magnificent, fitting all the important characters in it (Ras Al Gul, Bane, Talia). Although it is quite complex and lengthy to explain, basically Nolan is addressing philosophically the two sides of fear: in Batman begins, BW must defeat fear to become the hero the we all know. In TDKR, BW has to re-take the concept of fear which drives every single human being to survive: the fear of death. These two concepts alone, provide enough license for the gaffs that you point out herein to be deemed acceptable, after all, if we see the larger picture, of how Nolan was able to produce that level of identification between the masses and “the Batman”.
I enjoyed reading this, plus every single comment. There were a few points in the 20 that I can forgive, but ultimately the way I knew TDKR was inferior was the feeling I had when I left the cinema. I felt depressed, not simply bcos of “The conclusion”, but because of the issues you mention. Walking out of the cinema from Dark Knight, everyone was unanimous – in fact I went a few days later to watch it again, and I still get goosebumps when watching the final scene with Gordon explaining to his son about The Dark Knight, what he is and what he means… I thought: This IS Batman, this is what it’s all about, I was in the proverbial zen of fanboydom… but sadly those feelings were thrown out with TDKR. I felt the BW’s injuries were too much too soon (i.e. his knee and elbows having no cartilage) and that he would not have abandoned the cape for 8 yrs – he would have worked with Gordon (and later Blake) in secret, romanced Thalia and then be totally blindsided by Bane (and also Thalia).
Ultimately tho, there just wasn’t enough of Batman being Batman – in this case I absolutely agree with the mistake of deconstructing Batman to the point of diminishing the characters legacy (also shortchanging him since so many seemed to know his secret)
Still a good film but over a some time will feel more disappointing…
I tried to hear this article out but its is a series of whines. Like those guys who like to say “character development” in their IMDB posts. Drivel. Go back to 4chan.
Whilst you make a few points I agree with, you, and several commenters, also make some I disagree with. For instance, I felt a 2 minute scene where Bruce meets with someone who could be a link to the canon could have been a nice cameo and also explain how he gets back to Gotham.
As a fan of the comics as well as the movies, I was interested to see Catwoman would be portrayed. I was personally very pleased with the more realistic interpretation of a sociopath who has used her skills to work her way towards emancipation from her past. However, the message is clear through her choices, actions and the fact that she leaves with Bruce that her needs would never have been met through her crime, and without allowing herself to be vulnerable and go with Bruce, Selina Kyle could never have left Catwoman behind.
As for Talia, I think Nolan took an entirely different approach to their relationship. It was one based on the tension that both needed to release; however, it is later revealed that Talia’s tension was only due to the continuance of her plan. The love of Bruce Wayne’s life is already dead, and I feel that the scene where Catwoman kills Bane is a moment of clarity for Bruce, where he realises that he needs the yin to his yang, and maybe together they could leave Batman and Catwoman behind.
Maybe I’m reading too far in to some scenes, but that was the feeling I got at the time.
As for Joker, I felt maybe there would be a veiled tribute to Heath Ledger at some point, maybe even through a forlorn looking Harley Quinn waiting for someone who isn’t showing up, though how you’d explain who she is I do not know.
And lastly, the worst decision in all of the Nolanverse was replacing Katie Holmes with a woman who is just nothing compared to her.
With regard to #2, and every other comment I’ve read on this site regarding Juno’s Jen-READ BATMAN:YEAR ONE!!! If you read that graphic novel, Selina Kyle has a little criminal protege, who is clearly represented in DKR by Jen. Granted, their relationship is not explained, but neither is it explained in that seminal graphic novel. But because Nolan pulled so much from that book for his first two Batman movies, perhaps he thought a little homage to it in this his last movie was appropriate.
Regardless of feelings, all of the 1-20 mistakes completely valid and, in my opinion, correct. These have been further expanded on by some good contributors above (Steven and Cheddarmelon I’m looking at you). My main beef is that it seemed to move away from other-worldly and wanted to be real-wordly and fantasy at the same time, and the combination wasn’t pulled off. All of a sudden we are smacked with the reality of being of America, not just buildings and such but the president, anthem and US army, WTF! So much for a veil of fiction! And the shots of the city itself, gone were the buildings and transport links of an uber-industrial urbanised city pushed to the limit with incredible lighting that dramatically highlighted the steely cold facades of the buildings and people below, instead we have……Manhattan……and, save for a few frames, always in the sunshine. I didn’t realise that Rises meant ‘Sun Rises’! In sharp contrast to this reality we (as the audience) are expected to accept the mask (and voice) of Bane and Bruce Wayne’s healing ability!!! It is a complete disconnect and one that bookends the 1-20 mistakes as well as other problems mentioned already. I am probably alone but I don’t understand why it was even made, what were the loose ends in the previous films? It just seemed that all these new characters were introduced to tie up loose ends that didn’t exist in the first place and just created a mess and a movie that had Batman (yes the supposed star and no, not as Bruce Wayne) in it for approximately 30 mins! out of 165 mins! SERIOUSLY!!!!!
Yeah no the writer was spot on with a lot of them and I thought the same thing while watching the movie. I understand people enjoyed this movie and you know what that should be enough. It is a super hero, the cape alone is extremely illogical (the watchmen graphic novel plays this up to comic effect. I mean there are so much logical inconsistencies in this movie it is ridiculous but it is a comic book movie after all. I read comics I love comics but I never pretend they are logical. All in all though because I love comics I thought this was a bad movie. Just a bad movie in general. The writing was cheesy and betrayed the whole gritty realism thing. The movie itself was fun to watch but ultimately disappointing. Agree with most but not all of the points and have quite a few of my own to add.
To the guy who said these movies leave out arkham u are retarded. batman begins is pretty much about arkham storming the city whsn the fear toxin is relsase…tdkr waz good. bane was good. but it wasn’t the greatest movie in the series. begins , in my opinion waz..
I’m going to say something that a lot of people aren’t going to agree with, but it’s something that’s absolutely key to enjoying Nolan’s take on Batman:
Bruce Wayne becoming Batman was a bad f%$#ing idea.
The major arguments against Nolan’s films seem to center around people hating the fact that Bruce can move on as a person and give up being Batman. But that argument hinges entirely on the idea that being Batman in the first place was a GOOD thing. And that’s the thing: it wasn’t. Batman is an expression of misplaced rage and pain, a scarred child lashing out against the thing that hurt him. Just because he’s accomplishing good in the end, it doesn’t mean his methods or his actions are justifiable.
And think about it: in a world where there was no League of Shadows (the one threat in these films that Batman isn’t directly responsible for), wouldn’t Batman be kind of excessive? He’s not fixing problems in the long run– he’s just bludgeoning the crap out of criminals and sending them into an already overcrowded prison system. He’s treating symptoms, but not the real problems in Gotham. Couldn’t Bruce have done considerably more for the city by investing in police enforcement and social services– purging corruption through legitimate channels, and making Gotham a safer, more peaceful place for everyone?
And as a lot of people have pointed out, the only way Batman can keep being Batman is if he maintains a constant state of psychological damage– never letting the pain of his parents death go from his mind, and staying locked in a perpetual state of rage. In a comic book world, that sort of thing can be made light of, but in reality, there are only two results from a mindset like that: either you finally break through the trauma and move on with your life, or you spiral down into depression, and either kill yourself or get someone else to do it for you. That’s not heroic– that’s tragic. And that’s not the kind of ending that Bruce Wayne deserved.
Nolan’s films have always been about Bruce Wayne FIRST and Batman SECOND. Saving the city has been the basic plot of each of the Dark Knight movies, but ultimately they’re about how Bruce Wayne chooses to deal with his trauma. In the first film he finds a way to channel his rage into productive action, but in the second, he has to face the consequences of those actions, which leads up to the third film, where he finally realizes that he has to let go of his pain to have any sort of a real life (not that he lets that keep him from saving the day).
And in the end, he’s still managed to help Gotham by giving them a symbol that decent people can rally around– a symbol that can motivate good people to improve their city and their lives. It wasn’t the BEST way he could have helped Gotham, but he still managed to help in SOME way. Because evil isn’t something that a single person can be held responsible for, or something that a single person can put a stop to; evil is systemic, a product of a complacent society that looks the other way when the greedy and the ruthless prey on the disadvantaged and the desperate. Pushing a society to better itself from within is a FAR greater act of heroism that kicking the snot out of some mugger or a fat man in a tuxedo.
So if your big complaint about The Dark Knight Rises is that “Batman would NEVER quit!”, you need to stop thinking about Batman the invincible comic book character and start thinking about Bruce Wayne, a human being who is trying to cope with his pain. A real person shouldn’t be expected to shoulder that kind of a burden for his entire life. And Nolan’s message in the movie is ultimately a hopeful one: it IS possible to move on from trauma. It IS possible to have a better life. We don’t have to define ourselves by our pain.
Nolan’s making a point about LIFE. He’s just illustrating it through the story of Batman.
Besides, it’s not like THE Batman is going anywhere. You want the adventures of Bruce Wayne to continue? Just pick up a comic book or wait for the inevitable reboot. But I, for one, am glad that somewhere in the stable of comics, movies, and T.V. shows dedicated to the Dark Knight, someone saw fit to give the miserable son-of-a-bitch a “happily ever after”.
that death by snu snu joke wasnt FROM futurama. it’s just a classic joke. it was originally death by chi chi or by ki ki. great to see it used in a PG setting here in batman.
For No.7 there was another man who knew everything about the Applied Sciences division, a scumbag who had already tried to blackmail Bruce in TDK and almost revealed his identity on TV
Agreed with all points, and thought the point of Alfred knowing sooo much about Bane leads to another point: why did Batman need Catwoman to lead him to Bane? Not very detective-ish…
Also:
Sideways rotation of Batpod wheels with no noise from guns contacting pavement or altering the flow of the turns in any way, (BTW, Batman needs guns? Since when?).
Blake tossing a pistol, then later running around with a shotgun.
There are more but really, the best point was made already: the deconstruction of Batman. Sad.
A little late to this party. I Agree with most all the points. And it really reflects the biggest issue: It was Nolan and Co who seemed to have dropped the ball here. Poor story telling overall, and rather major mis-cues of plot and screenplay. That’s the surprising thing, it was simply an underwhelming achievement from Nolon.
It’s a fine- good movie. One just hates to see such a potential story lose itself like this.
I was hoping for a Gotham that had more to do with those who “believe” in harvey and batman, and those who don’t, a real brother agaisnt brother theme. Not so much an Army, premade, holding citizens hostage. (and I hate “ticking time bomb” plots)
However, as far as “deconstructing Batman”: I strongly agree with Darik above. And people miss this point about one of the most complex “superhero” characters ever made. It is NOT a good thing that Bruce lives with the pain and nightmares that made Batman a necessity in his life.
We should hope Bruce could leave it behind. He’s a deeply disturbed man, a soul that can’t find any peace. This is actually a major point of the TDK, as he hopes for Dent’s success.
Batman is his “best answer” for wanting to be a killing machine, a world hating maniac. This is why the Joker is such a poignent ying to his yang.
characters like Wolverine, or daredevil, few others get close to this affect, but Bruce/Batman is near ground zero for this chilling truth.
We love Batman, but we should care for Bruce Wayne as a person.
Furthermore, the movie was good in at least one other aspect. It wasn’t Batman just fighting another villian, it was an ending of a Trilogy. This has harmony to it. It was meant to exit Batman, and it should have.
I think it could have been a phenomenal, seminal peice of work, instead we got an okay movie that really missed it’s potential. Just wasn’t enough heart in the script/screenplay to justify it as great.
I don’t own this movie yet on DVD- I do hope a directors cut may add a smige more deapth. I will own it. but unlike the Flawless Batman Begins, and the Epic Dark Knight, this one just didn’t deliver on either level.
I do blame Nolan/screenwriters for this, BUT given their care to the overall story of Bruce/Batman I am as thankful and appreciative as I could be. So this is one place where I’d say my little critiques pale in comparison to everything they got right about the triolgy.
And we can thank Nolon and Co’s vision of Batman for the more prescient and “darker”/human qualities we get with James Bond, Iron Man, and avengers. Batman Begins and TDK will change character develoment for quite some time. And thank God for that.
thanks to all.